castration

Discussion dedicated to promoting the well-being of your dog through diet, exercise and general health tips.

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: castration

Post by jacksdad »

Oh to have the problem of an over confident dog....

I think your vet is well meaning, BUT isn't up to date. I have heard it expressed here by others and am actually experiencing it first hand my self. a lot of vets are a poor source for behavioral advice and nutritional advice. Not all, but a lot.

It is VERY, VERY important to keep in mind, an intact dog (one who hasn't be spaded or neutered) is in it's NATURAL state. This is how they co-existed with us for centuries upon centuries. This is how nature meant them to be. In this state they are not some inherently dangerous, out of control, un trainable monster. In fact spaying/neutering at the wrong time can cause problems that didn't' exist now.

The sole reason we should consider spay/neuter is for birth/population control. The question for most people shouldn't be to or not to, but when. here is a couple of good articles addressing some of the myths and concerns regarding spay/neutering.

http://www.homeopathicvet.co.uk/pdf%20f ... 0links.pdf
http://www.doglistener.co.uk/medical/neuter.shtml

as for "dominance aggression"...the vet is flat out wrong about this, it doesn't exist. The problem is Dominance isn't about being in charge, and aggression is often fear based. IF your dog was truly aggressive you wouldn't be talking about nips, but FAR more serious issues than you are. And neutering at the wrong time could cause a drop in confidence if your dog is still a juvenile and lead to aggression issues.

Something to think about. I have a neutered dog. he has fear aggression issues, I was told it was because he was trying to be in charge, basically "dominance aggression". he also as I have already stated earlier in this thread shown basically sexual interest in a couple female dogs. IF neutering fixes these things, why am I still dealing with them? The answer is 1. he isn't a "dominant" dog nor a truly aggressive dog, rather he is a fearful dog with low confidence. from genetics or to early neutering? we will never know. And 2. Neutering is about population control, end of story.

So, what to do? There is clearly a population problem, and it's clearly the most responsible thing for most people to have their dog spayed/neutered. BUT please consider the timing of this. you can always snip later, but you can't take it back if you do it to early. of course there are also laws to consider for some places and then there is the question of can you keep your dog from getting out un supervised IF you chose to wait until he is an adult all needs to be factored into this.

So, my two cents. I think your a responsible dog owner by asking questions and trying to understand the pro/con of a choice that needs to be made. I in now way trying to talk out of of or into spaying or neutering. My only goal is to help provide info so you can make the best choice for your dog. because that is the only dog that matters at the moment.
User avatar
Nettle
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: castration

Post by Nettle »

Can you refresh my memory on Baxter's breed/mix? Do you think he might have a hip problem or another source of discomfort that means he hurts when he sits? It's a very long shot, but worth investigating.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
amzh86
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:09 am

Re: castration

Post by amzh86 »

Nettle wrote:Can you refresh my memory on Baxter's breed/mix? Do you think he might have a hip problem or another source of discomfort that means he hurts when he sits? It's a very long shot, but worth investigating.

Hi nettle, i completely understand what you are saying, this is all i can think about day and night. I always planned on getting him castrated since before we brought him home so that he cant go and have pups,the last thing i want is for there to be even more puppies that cannot be homed or properly cared for.
Baxter is a black labrador.The lady i got him off said mum and dad were both yellow labradors but almost all of the litter were black with a two yellow and one chocolate (not sure how the colours are made up) They also had "GRANDMA" who was a yellow lab also. but the more i think about picking him up and the state he was in the more i am inclined to think they werent the parents. I also never got any information on mum or dads hips scores or anything. I went into the buying of him without doing my research properly, but on the plus side thank goodness i did get him, he wasnt wormed correctly and was on adult food also he was seperated from his parents and i was misinformed of his date of birth. The vet checked him over and said everything was ok with him before she recommended castration. He sits no problem other than when he is yelling at me and i ask him to do it. I only wish id have done more research before i got him, but at least he is being well looked after now
User avatar
Nettle
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: castration

Post by Nettle »

Genetically it is impossible for two yellow labradors to produce a black puppy.

Labs are VERY prone to hip disorders. Have his hips been checked? I don't mean a quick prod from the vet: I mean a thorough check.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
amzh86
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:09 am

Re: castration

Post by amzh86 »

Ill have to look into that. I have since posting this been told something quite disturbing. My friend who lives 200miles from me came to visit, she has had quite alot of experience training dogs with behavioural issues, ranging from yorkshire terriers to boxers. She saw first hand how he behaved towards me, and said he was definately warning me to back off. She offered to take him with her for two weeks to try different things which i reluctantly agreed too (im missing him ALOT ). She rang me friday night and had her friend to see him (he is a trainer and also judges dog shows). He spent the afternoon with him and said he thinks Baxter was mistreated when he was very small, to which i said well ive had him since 7 weeks and ive always used reward based training,to which she said no, were talking when he was very tiny, he also doesnt look to have had the interaction with his mum. I am so upset for him, how could i have missed that? he wasnt really playful as a pup but loved to cuddle up and if we had a toy he would chase it.But i am also quite angry how my trainer never picked up on this, the amount of times we had her round and phoned her to be told he shouldnt behave like that because of his training. He also said he doesnt look much like a labrador because he is so thin, but i am feeding him the recommended amount and doesnt look underfed,he was 16.5kg at 5 and a half months.
However, he is being allowed to play with the other dogs,and hasnt nipped or jumped up at anyone but he is barking alot and still seems hungry after he has been fed which i thought before but he is being fed the amount it says on the packet and ive just introduced him to left over bits of chicken,potato and vegetables. I am just hoping he will continue like this when he comes home. i have been phoning every day to see what method she has used so i can research and make sure i continue to do things exactly how she has, right down to the times she takes him for walks.
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: castration

Post by emmabeth »

Whilst I am usually very wary of dogs going away to be trained, this is already done and seems to be yielding better results than the previous people who have been paid to help you!

Have your friend SHOW you exactly what she has been doing, because ultimately a lot depends on the person (which is one reason we don't tend to recommend dogs going away to be trained, so much of these things are down to training the OWNER how to handle the dog rather than training the actual dog, which is why places like this forum can be so useful!).

What this person says about your dog being mishandled/mistreated pre-seven weeks - well it IS guesswork, it may well BE educated guesswork, but it is still guesswork.
However despite my skepticism - the fact you were told both parents were yellow labs.. and your boy is black, rings pretty major alarm bells.

Genetically there is NO WAY the two yellow dogs you were told were your puppies parents, can have been his parents. No way. So the breeder has in all probability, lied to you there.

If they have lied to you (and if they havent they are fairly stupid to not know this) about this, they have probably lied to you about other things, particularly that either one of the parents is not his parent or that NEITHER of them are his parents. The fact he isnt looking as a lab pup of his age should look suggests he is either a crossbreed or from unregistered parents who are poor examples of the breed.

I would put money on him having been bought in to sell on from a puppy mill, personally - that's my gut feeling and accounts for his parents not being his parents, and the date of birth issue. If he was raised in a puppy mill he probably wasnt handled much and was roughly handled when he did get any human contact, he was probably also moved on pretty young and didnt get to socialise with adult dogs or his litter mates sufficiently.

However- ALL this is guesswork and what you have to focus on now is training and living wtih the dog you HAVE - the whys and wherefores as to how he got the way he is are curious but they won't change what needs to be done!

Do get back in touch with us when you have him back!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
amzh86
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:09 am

Re: castration

Post by amzh86 »

Well Baxter came home, he is completely different, he is so calm, he hasnt jumped or mouthed (other than yesterday when my parents came to visit and ignored all instructions i told them to follow!) I am thinking now that he is maybe a cross with an alsatian or similar, i saw one yesterday when we went for a walk and his body and nose look the same, he is far too thin for a labrador if you ask me, even though we have upped his food, but someone said he would look more alsatian if he was crossed with one so i dont know anymore, the most important thing is he is alot calmer and alot better with the puppy now too. they play nicely and whenever he sits and waits so does the puppy.
runlikethewind
Posts: 1166
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:48 pm

Re: castration

Post by runlikethewind »

Blimey there is NO WAY IN THE WORLD I would ever send my dogs away to be trained for so so so many reasons. Gosh - you took a risk... so what happened then? She must have given you a debrief after your dog came back home?
amzh86
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:09 am

Re: castration

Post by amzh86 »

well after many chats (including the forum and the comments about 2 yellow labs not producing a black puppy), my friend said a few of the behaviours she had come across in her dog that was a rescue from a puppy mill, so after ringing my friend and telling her what emmabeth had posted, she said to me i hate to agree but he has many factors which are very similar to those of pups from puppy mills including his intusseption a few weeks after we got him. She hasnt told me how she has stopped the nipping but its completely stopped now, and when he tries to jump instead of saying no she has taught him "get off" which he has responded greatly to. She also thinks the interaction with the other dogs her and her family own has helped him greatly as he was "told off" if he became too much for them. Because of his intusseption he wasnt allowed out as he hadnt had all of his jabs and was 15 weeks before we could take him out to socialise properly and he was always hyper when he came across other dogs. Now he is calm and relaxed and greets them calmly. I think it helped that she has dealt with this situation before.
Erica
Posts: 2697
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:35 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: castration

Post by Erica »

As far as his biting when you take his collar - this is something that Amadeus, the malamute I helped raise, did. It could have been pretty dangerous, since some kids that came over to the house would try to lead him somewhere and he would snap at them. The trainer his family hired suggested getting a cheese stick or hotdog and holding it in one hand. Let the dog take little, tiny nibbles until he's absorbed in that part. Then gently pet his back and slowly work your way toward his neck, while letting him continue to have small nibbles. If he turns his head to nip at you, stand up and walk away - he loses the chance to have the yummy treat. Try this several times a day for short periods, and it might help. It worked well with Amadeus!

Edit: Oh, I skipped over your last post for some reason. Sorry!
Delta, standard poodle, born 6/30/14
doggiedad
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:25 pm

Re: castration

Post by doggiedad »

i've never neutered my dogs and my dogs
are well trained, highly socialized,
no nerve issues, no temperment issues,etc.
Post Reply