castration

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castration

Postby amzh86 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:49 pm

I am due to get my puppy neutered at the end of july. I discussed this with the vets at the first check and she told me it was a great idea that id thought that far ahead and discussed the health factors. However, my friend came over today and said it will change him and make him "nasty". Is this not the way the dog has been trained that dictates the temperament of a dog and nothing to do with whether he is neutered or not?
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Re: castration

Postby Nettle » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:00 pm

Hormones dictate how dogs mature, and neutering at the wrong time can affect dogs of either gender badly both physically and behaviourally. The right time is when the dog has finished growing mentally and physically, which for most breeds is around two years old.
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Re: castration

Postby emmabeth » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:04 pm

Mmm I agree with Nettle - a pair of furry plums on a dog does not render him untrainable or unmanageable and whilst I fully agree with responsible neutering in a variety of situations, doing it 'just because' is not so great.

Whilst it won't automatically make him nasty - the sudden drop in testosterone can make a young dog VERY fearful and that can lead to fear aggression, so if you DO go ahead you need to be hyper aware of it and manage him supercarefully so that nothing can scare him, and you are constantly boosting his confidence.

As Nettle says though, I would leave it until he is a grown up doggy, and then consider whether you need to/want to do it. (If you do still decide to do it now we will still give you advice and help with how to cope with any issues that crop up, so don't worry about that! :D )
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Re: castration

Postby amzh86 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:44 pm

That is one thing the vets did not tell me!! they told me it would prevent him getting certain cancers, prevent him trying to run away to mate with a female and stop him from "mating" objects which he has been doing since 8 weeks old.The vet i initially saw said 6 months, then the practice manager said 7-8 months when they are more mature. Ill hold off as long as i can. Thanks :D
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Re: castration

Postby emmabeth » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:27 pm

Bwahahahaha -

I have an 11 year old dog here who will hump other dogs and my leg..
Will run off to see a b itch in season
Wil mate and TIE with a b itch in season.

He has been neutered since 18 months old. Wonder how your vet would explain all of that.

He doesn't hump other dogs or my leg, because he is told not to (he does it out of anxiety/frustration so IF he tries it, we know hes feeling worried and we do something about it.
He doesn't run off to see in season ladies because we have a secure fence and he has a good recall - so we prevent it.
He has tied with two in season bitches - because I believed the vets who said he wouldnt be interested or capable - now that I know he hasn't done it since!

On the other hand my entire male dog of 3 years old doesnt hump anything, ever and only started getting stressed when my then entire b itch was at day 7 of her season and even THEN he didnt know which END was correct! (She then had a brief holiday elsewhere until she was done with her season as a safety precaution).

Entire animals are NOT the work of the devil and they are not horribly unhealthy walking time bombs - but they DO require a greater degree of responsiblity than neutered ones. You have to take into consideration not just YOUR ability to be responsible for an entire animal, but also those who live with you, and the people within your local area.

So where I will happily keep an entire male, when I have a securely fenced garden and no kids in the house to let him out, and I know there are rarely free range entire b itches in my local area (so the risks of him mating a b itch unknown to me are REALLY low) - if i had entire b itches I might choose otherwise.

I dont have entire b itches past the age of maturity (and for my deerhound that was nearly 3 years old), because though i consider the house and garden safe, accidents do occur and there are a LOT of entire dogs wandering around the estate and fields where I live, very high risk.

There is lots to take into consideration, and wh ilst it IS true, if you cut any part of an animal off, that animal can no longer get cancer of that part... testicular cancer in DOGS is not the scary high risk thing it is in humans. Its easy to spot if you groom and check your dog regularly (as you should), its slow to spread and easy to fix. I bet your vet didnt tell you that neutering pre-puberty INCREASES the risk of bone cancer - which is really hard to spot (nigh on impossible), spreads REALLY fast (so its spread before you know tis there) and highly likely to kill the dog.

We are not anti neutering here, we are anti- misinformation, and doing things blindly out of panic. Take your time, let your dog mature and the if you want to, if you think it is best, neuter him to prevent accidental pregnancy/catching infections (dogs get those too!). Its not a cure for behavioural problems or training problems!
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Re: castration

Postby jacksdad » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:42 pm

Jack is neutered and has shown intense sexual interest in two female dogs since I got him. One I know for sure was in heat, the other not so sure, but might have been starting. it was the only time he has ever tried to mount another dog.
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Re: castration

Postby wvvdiup1 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:32 pm

There have been research on castrating males or spaying females, and do you know what they've found in these researches? It is best to wait at least two years (when the dog is physically and mentally matured) before spaying or neutering!

Not only will it allow your dog to develop fully, it allows the hormones to develop in such a way that they will work with your dog's immunity system, helping it to ward off certain diseases, even as the dog grows older! Hormones do other things as well that help protect dogs, but offhand, I can't remember what all it does at this moment! (URGH! I hate when this happens! :evil:)

My advice would be to hold off neutering you puppy for right now and wait until he is at least two years old! :wink:
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Re: castration

Postby Helen2009 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:38 am

Just to throw something into the mix here. I was told my a behaviour counsellor that some dogs get attracted to bitches who have compacted anal glands as the smell is similar to that of a ***** on heat (they smell quite fishy when full). When your dog is mature enough you might want to try Suprelorin, not sure if its available where you are but it lasted my dog a good year as opposed to the six months.
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Re: castration

Postby amzh86 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:23 am

I went to see my vet again (must have spent easy £200 just on consultation fees for the vet excluding treatments and things, £100 for behaviour and trainers in 3 months). I explained to the vet what was going on after being bit yet again!! She said he is over confident and challenging me as the boss. When i told her that the behaviourist i spoke to said that dominance aggression didnt exist the vet told me it does! She asked if Baxter acts like he does towards me to anyone else which he doesnt, and i said all i do is ask him to sit when he is barking but it is that bad i darent take him by his collar and remove him incase he does get hold of my hand (he is so angry), so i left the room and was met by a growl and a bite when i dared to walk back in. She said because he is an over confident dog, this behaviour will only be reduced and fixed by castration and his behaviour will get worse as he matures and the testosterone hits his blood stream.
I asked what has made him over confident and she said it could be genetics (unfortunately i didnt see mum or dad! the biggest mistake i made) so now i dont know what to do. Both times he has bit me now the kids have witnessed it, it is more than a simple nip, ive had many of these. But do i follow the advice of the vet, and make him a little less confident or do i wait and let things get worse and get bitten again. Ive read a few different articles on neutering early and the best age and have had mixed reviews. The last thing i want is to get him castrated and it not reduce his confidence and become ill because of the decision i have made, on the same hand i dont want him to continue to challenge me and biting at me,if its one day i have leggings or a dress on and he does it he probably would draw blood. This last bite i had deep pressure marks on my skin but had my jeans on, the time before he went through my jeans and left a large bruise.
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Re: castration and biting

Postby runlikethewind » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:20 am

AMZH86 you never mentioned in your first post any of the biting. This is important and we need to know why he is biting. Please can you explain the daily routine of the dog and what you are doing or what is going on at the time which then leads to a bite.

My dog is aggressive when we go to take ticks off him yet is fine when the vet does touches him.ie he is only aggressive to his owner. There is supposed to be such a thing as 'control conflict aggression' where the dog controls (with aggression) what his or her owners does to the dog. ie the dog has low tolerance levels to anything. That concept has been refuted on here - being that the dog just has a personality which prefers space and not being touched unless on his terms.
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Re: castration and biting

Postby amzh86 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:01 am

runlikethewind wrote:AMZH86 you never mentioned in your first post any of the biting. This is important and we need to know why he is biting. Please can you explain the daily routine of the dog and what you are doing or what is going on at the time which then leads to a bite.

My dog is aggressive when we go to take ticks off him yet is fine when the vet does touches him.ie he is only aggressive to his owner. There is supposed to be such a thing as 'control conflict aggression' where the dog controls (with aggression) what his or her owners does to the dog. ie the dog has low tolerance levels to anything. That concept has been refuted on here - being that the dog just has a personality which prefers space and not being touched unless on his terms.



The biting has been twice in the last 2 weeks.
I wake up and let him outside to the toilet at around 7am,
7.30 Breakfast time
8.00 Toilet time
he is then left monday- friday from 8.30 until 9.35 for me to do the school run.
around 10am i take him for a walk have reduced down to 25minutes, the local park is only 2minutes away, i throw toys for him to fetch, walk him around the field (we run 1/2 way)
when i get home the door is left open so he can go to the toilet whenever he feels the need or just play out there with his toys while i clean up.
1pm i spend half an hour constantly throwing a ball and a rope (alternitavely). then come in
he plays with his toys whether it be his rope, ball, kongs or teething toys
4pm the kids come home from school around 4.15 play in the garden, usually with their dad while i prepare tea throwing things for him
5pm he has his tea
about 7pm he goes for his evening strole to the park again and has just started to play with other dogs rather than just licking them to death.
then again at 9.15 he goes for another 10 minute walk.(if he doesnt go for this walk, he has accidents in the house)

There has been a few times he has wanted to play but wouldnt sit so i turned away so he has nipped either my arm or my bottom as i have been walking away,(we always get him to sit before we play) but i put this down to frustration of being ignored. The first time he actually bit me,it was that hard i almost cried, i was just stood giving my little girl a cuddle,she was singing nursery rhymes which we do quite often around Baxter, i asked him to sit when he started barking, that is when he growled and bit my knee,which is lucky it was me as my daughters leg was 2inches above where he got me. The second time i was making a cup of tea for my friend,he came in from the garden and started barking at me. So i ignored it,it progressed so i asked him to sit, he continued barking at me,i didnt want to get his collar to remove him,incase he bit my hand so i removed myself, he continued to bark, i waited until he stopped walked back in and was greeted by more barking, i asked him to sit,he didnt instead he growled and bit my leg. My friend was even shocked. He has been fantastic for over a week without these outbursts, she spends alot of time here and even she said his body language had changed and he was going to bite,he was warning me. There was nothing he could have been guarding. They come out of nowhere, most of the time i can control the situation but it seems now that i cant.He will be fine for days or a week and then just start, 5 minutes after starting he has stopped and is back to himself.
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Re: castration

Postby runlikethewind » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:27 am

The trainers will be here to advise but what I'm thinking is you are possibly playing too many high energy, wind up games with him (throwing a ball or rope all the time is not mentally healthy; that is like being an athlete and being in a constant state of arousal and not being able to relax and unwind) so when the times comes when you want him to relax, he cannot and takes his frustration out on you - by barking then then nipping. It becomes even more frustrating because you are asking him to sit and sitting is a calm behaviour and he is not in that state to be calm. I cannot see here that this is true fear aggression (only perhaps when you were singing if he took a dislike to that as some dogs do)

Have you tried any other games with him - quieter games involving puzzles or tricks - clicker training or stuffing Kongs with food and freezing them to give him quiet time?

When you need him to do other things other than barking at you, send him off to find treats you have hidden around the house or give him the Kong. In the meantime, involved everyone in clicker training for fun - this will wear him out more than chasing a ball around like a maniac.
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Re: castration

Postby amzh86 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:28 am

thank you for that suggestion, i will give that a try. I do hide treats and we have 3 different kongs, one to feed him his meals, a teething type kong and also a large kong that we use with treats when im leaving the house for more than an hour. The last time he bit me was we hadnt been playing for over an hour and were inside, ill try hiding things for him, we have just started hiding people and letting him find them and ive hidden a few treats under various bowls so he can sniff them out but this has only been once or twice. What are these puzzle types? id love to give them a go
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Re: castration

Postby runlikethewind » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:45 am

Nina Ottoson do the nicest ones although there are some copies now.
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Re: castration

Postby emmabeth » Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:06 pm

I think he is frustrated - also possibly you are not being consistent enough - finally COULD he possibly associate being told to sit with something unpleasant.

Maybe your body language, how do you say it in these situations, is it stressed or angry, are you pointing a finger or leaning over him - that could turn the command 'sit' into almost an attack depending on how its done so that could account for his response.

If you are going to use time outs where you leave the room yo DO need to repeat them over and over and over. Going out, count to ten, return and if he starts barking again go out, count ten, return - if you mix it up by sometimes telling him to sit, sometimes leaving the room, hes going to be confused and frustrated and it does seem as if he is wound up and desperate to get a reaction (and biting is a sure fire way to achieve that!).

I think you do need to look out for these situations occurring and stop them before they start - if you see him getting annoying and overly giddy, and hes going to start yelling at you - use the time outs until you get the few seconds long enough to get him a chew toy or something and redirect him onto that (ie long enough for you to change the subject).

I do also agree with runlikethewind - i think hes getting overstimulated and wound up which isnt helping.
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