Aggression to visitors in home & some people outside

[ladybug1802]

Hi...I am new to this forum and am hoping someone can help me with problems I am experiencing.

My dog, Dylan, is a rescue dog and he is probably collie x retriever and approx 18 months or so. All I know about his past is that he was picked up as a stray in Wales and bought over to a rescue centre over here and he had been over here for a few days when I took him home. I have had him since November (10 months). When I first got him he was very skinny, very insecure and nervous, and didnt bark for about 3 or 4 weeks.

He has gradually got more confidence and is now a generally happy, affectionate little dog. I have done obedience classes, and his obedience is pretty good....apart from if he gets a scent when we are out then he just becomes deaf but is only gone for a few minutes. I also do agility with him every week which he loves and is So good at it - the class is in an indoor riding arena and there are lots of people and dogs and he is absolutely fine with them all....the only thing he has done is when an entire male is in the class, that he hadnt seen before, he can become fixated and at the start when we begun the classes he would run over to the dog - not to attack but almost to sort of interrogate. He doesnt like entire males.

But that was just a little bit of background - the main issue I am having is to do with aggression. 95% of the time he is gorgeous...a lovely, sweet, affectionate little chap, and I can do anything with him and he adores cuddles. Even from when I got him (well, when he was allowed off lead and when he was more confident) I noticed that sometimes when he passed people on a walk, and if they put their hand down to say hello, he would 'air snap' (sort of snap in their direction but not to bite) and then move away again. I have also since discovered that he really doenst seem to like people crouching down to say hello to him or bending over him. For example, yesterday I went to a horse show to help a couple of friends, and had Dylan with me in the car as wanted to walk him round later on to get him used to that environment. He was a really good boy with the horses around him, and I even had him sitting at the entrance to the warm up arena and he had horses trotting past right in front of him. He knows the 'watch me' command so any time I thought he might react I got him to watch me and gave him a treat.

Now a couple of people said hello to him, but because I am not sure if he is going to react or not I say to people that he doesnt like people bending over him so ask them to just put their hand down by their side for him to sniff first, and then they can stroke his head. With a couple of people he was fine, but then another lady came over and said how beautiful he was and started to bend over him to stroke him, so I said he doesnt like that and asked if she wouldnt mind standing up....she had rescue dogs and was great, and she put her hand down and he sniffed and then she was able to stroke his head. However then I could see in his eyes he looked a bit worried - his eyes go a bit wider, his ears go down a bit and he sort of stares, wide eyed....then he sort of did a little lunge and snap in her direction - not enough to actually bite, but as a couple of people said yesterday, it seems to be more of a nervous warning. He also was a bit funny with another girl who did exactly as I asked, but she had a baseball capp on and he has been a little wary of people with hats on in the past. The thing is this girl was with another girl I know, and then I gave them both a piece of cheese to give him and he took it from them fine. I wanted them to give him a treat so he associated them with good thing. Incidentally the other girl she was with, who I know, he was fine with. Admittedly I dont let anyone crouch down to cuddle him properly.

Another thing that happened was on a walk, there was a couple bang smack in the middle of the path reading a map, so I had him walking to heel off lead, and we walked past the couple (basically Dylan was on my right and the guy was really close to my left hand side). As we walked past Dylan was walking by my side looking up at me, and as we passed the guy he said 'hello' to Dylan (not bending down or anything, just the words) and Dylan moved behind me and lunged a bit towards the lady and 'air snapped' again.....didnt touch the lady and if he wanted to properly bite her he could have done, but it took me by surprise. It seemed to be the man speaking that made Dylan react...I was wondering if he was protecting me - if he thought these people were too close to me?? Either way - its not acceptable.

The main issue I am experienceing however is when people come to my house. Now I dont have that many visitors to my house to be honest - I mostly go and meet friends out or to their houses for no real reason other than that is how it usually happens. When I first got him he was pretty insecure, and for many months he always let people in the house - he got a little excitable but he was able to be loose and people could come in no problem. A few months ago a lady came in (a dog trainer as it happens who I had out to try and tweak certain aspects of his training) and one of the things I wanted help with was that he barked like mad when the doorbell rang and ran and jumped up at the door. But when I let her in he did something he hadnt previously done - he lunged and snapped at her again. Not a specific bite, but a snap in the direction of her upper legs area. He did touch her, but it wasnt enough to break the skin. Now I cant remember if when he had started to go towards her I grabbed his collar, or whether I did that after he snapped, but I now realise with him that grabbing his collar seems to make him think there is more of a threat. He also did something similar when an elderly (altho ver fit) neighbour popped round - I had been getting him to sit and stay at the far end of the hall when people rung the doorbell, which he was doing well with, but chatting to the neighbour on the doorstep, Dylan sytayed in place, but she was making direct eye contact with him, which he doesnt like that much, and speaking to him. I asked her to please ignore him, and invited her in for a bit.....as she came in Dylan just stood up and came towards us in a normal walk pace, but as she came in I think he lunged a bit again, and as he did I grabbed his collar and he snapped towards her again....once again not breaking the skin, but because of her age she did bruise quite abit on her thigh area.

I then got a baby gate for the far end of the hall to basically fence off the kitchen from the hallway so I can get him to sit behind the gate, but I have to say this seems to have made him bark even more frantically when people come in. When I just was working on sitting him at the far end of the hallway, he would bark when the doorbell rang, but then if, for example, it was my parents who were coming in, as soon as he saw who it was his ears wpuld relax, his tail would start wagging and he would be fine. Then I would get them to go into the living room then release him to say hello. However now, when my parents come in, even when he sees them come in he is still on the other side of the baby gate barking frantically, jumping at the gate, like a mad thing. And he knows them and loves them - they are also, aside from me, the people that he trusts and they can do anything with him too. I dont understand his reaction to them but the frantic barking that doesnt stop seems to have coincided with the baby gate being put up.

A friend came over to pick me up Sat night, and I had asked if she could come over earlier so I could get her to come in, then let Dylan in to the room and basically ask her to ignore him for 15 mins or so. Now she came over 20 mins late so we were in a rush, so I think I was definitely defintely not as calm and silent and assertive as I should have been and rushed things a bit. He barked like a mad thing on the other side of the gate when she came in, and continued barking when me and her went into the living room....when he stopped I let him into the living room on the lead (mainly because I was worried he might lunge at my friend who isnt a real doggy person). He was OK when I took him in, mainly excitable and seemed to want to say hello...but I blocked him and sat on the sofa for a bit with him next to me.....now what I think I should have done was let him off lead and ask her tot totally ignore him - no eye contact, nothing, but I then gave her a biscuit to give him and he went over to her (she was next to me) and sat oin front of her for a cuddle. She started stroking him, and then before I had a chance to say anything she had moved forward on the sofa, bending down towards him a bit, and he lunged up at her a little bit and didnt bite, but sort of hit her cheek/nose somehow. No broken skin as such but her cheek was rather red. So I checked him with the lead and moved him away.

To be honest I am really worried about people coming to the house now - I just dont know how to play it. I adore my dog and want to do the best for him, but to be honest feel like I must be failing him or doing things very wrong if he has gone from being happy for people to come in, then not liking it when they came into the hall but being fine when they are in the living room, to being a little unpredictable. I am sure my vibes dont help as I know I tense up and this will project onto him. But I dont know whether I should just let him into the living room and ask people to stand up and totally ignore him. I dont think he would lunge at them if they stood in my living room and stood still, but there is stillk thart doubt.

I have started to do more things to make him not so reliant on me if that is the right word - I ignore him when i come back home, or when I go to another room and come back again, I only give him attention and playtime on my terms - not when he comes over demanding attention and bringing a toy up and throwing it in my lap! When I first got him however I didnt do all this - I admit I felt sorry for him and just showered him wirh affection and love. But now I am worried I have made things worse for him...it is just so sad to see him so stressed in the home, and when he reacts badly to certain people outside he has a brief look of real worry on his little face.

I am so sorry to have wittered on for so long....I just wanted to try and give as much detail but realise it is now an essay!! I did have a behaviourist/psychologist lady out a copuple of weeks ago who seemed good, and she is coming out again on Thursday, but I would welcome advice from anbyone who has any ideas on how to sort this. I have been so upset this weekend...in tears most of yesterday as I feel helpless and I just want to help my little boy.

Thank you if you have managed to get to the end of my mammoth post!!

[runlikethewind]

Hello

Gosh you had EXACTLY the same problems I had with my sensitive boy!!! It is almost as if I am reading my first post all over again. Stick around here and you'll get some wonderful advice from the experts. We are just about sorted now with my boy's aggression because we read the very same signs you are seeing and act before anything can happen, but it always going be a case of some dogs don't like their space invaded - mine will always be like that. So it's a case of making sure we and people do not to overwhelm him

Hang on! Help is on its way!

[ladybug1802]

Hi!

Oh thank you SO much for your reply! SO really....was your boy displaying much the same behaviour? How did you get on top of the behaviour when people visited your home and is he improving now?

Sorry for the questions - I have been so upset yesterday with it all.....I just want him to be the same as he is with me and with most people which is an affectionate, happy, gorgeous little chap! The fear outside the home with certain people I can deal with more, but the reaction in the home has really been getting me down.

Where are you based by the way?

[Nettle]

He is not aggressive. He is communicating. The people are being rude, and at this stage you are not giving him enough protection because you are being polite to the people (we all start that way! ) who are being rude to your dog.

Head-patting is rude and confrontational. If I walked up to you and patted you on the head you'd probably snark at me.
Bending over a dog is rude and confrontational. If a gorilla bent over you, you'd probably freeze or freak.
Shoving an outstretched hand in a dog's face is rude and confrontational, although it used to be put forward as the right thing to do, and loads of people still do it. Stick a hand in their faces and they'd have something to say about it.

Your dog is warning with the air-snap. Sounds to me that he has in the past (before he came to you) been punished for growling and/or snarling, so he has upped the ante by going for the air-snap. From the air-snap it goes to the close-mouthed punch, then to the mouth open but not skin-breaking bite, then the skin-breaking bite, then the tearing and crushing bite. That is the natural escalation, and quite rightly you don't want to go there. Nor does your dog.

So go out of your way to protect him from well-meaning but rude people - who want to stroke him for their pleasure not his and be really firm with them. If visitors are late, don't let them cause more hassle - they can damned well pay the price for their lateness and do things your way no matter how much later it makes them. Your dog's welfare comes before their lateness.

When out, keep your body between your dog and whatever he tells you he isn't happy with. Watch his body language. When he starts to stiffen and eyeball, break the eye contact with your body and take him away from whatever he fears. If you stop for a chat with someone, keep between them and him, and if he starts to get uneasy LISTEN TO HIM and make a bigger space between you.

Be very very firm with people and protect your dog. The more he can rely on you to protect him, the less reactive he will be. Read through some of our other threads on reactive dogs, especially those by Jacksdad, who has come a long distance in a short time simply by learning to read his dog and protecting him.

Please ask any questions you want - no question is stupid or irrelevant, and we love to help.

[runlikethewind]

Hi

Yes - the signs are all the same and he still does it now with us if we make weird noises or do something he dislikes or with people who do odd things to him and we don't get there quick enough. pupils dilated, tense head, face, hard look (scary look!), looking up, ready to go, followed by awful growling. He also used to airsnap and 'punch' as explained above. If it is directed as us (and it's not often now as we know what he dislikes so we are a much happier household now), we just turn our heads away and not look at him and the tension stops as we have understood him. We then just walk away and then go and play instead or do something rewarding to take his mind of it (because we can tell he actually does not like having to be aggressive towards us). As I said, we hardly have any of these occurences now.

With other people, I have to tell them to give him space, he is a collie (as yours is half collie too). I say please respect his space. Let him come up to you if he wants - on his terms and do not look into this face. Once I had a friend over and we were making tea and did not see what was going on. My friend was so desperate to say hello to my dog, she pursued him around the dining table making giddy squeaky noises, and she missed all the signals. He went for her - as a last resort. Some people who have had docile dogs or no dogs at all need to be educated too. I actually really love having a dog I can now read. It's makes it so interesting!! A collie is super intelligent and wants to understand and control the things around him - if he cannot and does not get that respect, that's where things go wrong. Just the other day, we were in a friend's garden - she was a collie - a Teflon dog I have heard the phrase used before, she does not react to anything - at least not what I have seen. She is very happy go lucky. You can squeeze and cuddle her, wrap your arms around her etc. But she knows not to even try this with my boy! But she lost her senses for one moment and stood over my dog in a bid to get him to play rough with a football and mock growled at him!! Well... luckily my dog is giving earlier warning signals now and he went immediately tense and stiff, all the signs above. I was just about to day 'Don't....' but she realised and backed right off then all was forgotten and we were back to normal.

I believe you can eventually desensitse a dog to being petted heavily etc - ie reward to being more tolerant BUT I would not personally do this as the dog is merely hiding its emotions... I think. The experts will give you advice on how to improve your dog's reactions to strangers when they have not even approached him. If someone approached my dog now, he skirts around them out of reach. Only if he is backed into a corner is there trouble. People think he is aloof etc but I don;t care - I'd rather a dog be wary of strangers. I have also found that my dog has improved the older he has got. He chooses the option to flee for example and this has certainly been the case with a couple of dog on dog altercation.

On the stair gate barking etc, I have no experience of this. The experts will give you good advice.

On having a trainer around to see your dog, just be careful what theories they subscribe to in terms of behaviour correction/improvement. I did the same thing as you and I also went to all the clubs in the area who gave me silly advice which I regretfully believed at the time - you'll hear it called dominance reduction techniques etc, he's trying to be the boss etc.

[Mattie]

Air snapping is one step up from growling, growling is communication and is similar to us talking along with a dog's body language, when people ignore a warning growl then next stage is air snapping, a dog that air snaps first has learnt that a warning growl doesn't work which is not good. Have a look at viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6111, it will help you understand aggression, also viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2959, there are several clips on a dog's body language which will help you understand Dylan better.

Try to put yourself inDylan's position, get down to his level and see what it is like, imagine people leaning over you or better still can someone do that, also patting you on the head. You will see this problem from Dylan's point of view and understand why he doesn't like it, to a dog it can be terrifying and threatening.

I always just stand close enough to a dog and allow them to come to me to sniff, if their body language is relaxed, I will put my hand dog for them, if still relaxed I will tickle them under the chin or on the chest, I NEVER pat their head, that is terrifying for a dog, even my own dogs now I never pat them on the head. These people who pat Dylan on the head, I wonder how they would feel if you were to pat them on the head. I can be so evil at times:lol:

However then I could see in his eyes he looked a bit worried - his eyes go a bit wider, his ears go down a bit and he sort of stares, wide eyed....then he sort of did a little lunge and snap in her direction - not enough to actually bite, but as a couple of people said yesterday, it seems to be more of a nervous warning.

You are starting to understand Dylan's body language, that is good, but when you see him worried, remove him from the situation, he can't cope with it and if pushed he could bite. It won't be his fault.

Another thing that happened was on a walk, there was a couple bang smack in the middle of the path reading a map, so I had him walking to heel off lead, and we walked past the couple (basically Dylan was on my right and the guy was really close to my left hand side). As we walked past Dylan was walking by my side looking up at me, and as we passed the guy he said 'hello' to Dylan (not bending down or anything, just the words) and Dylan moved behind me and lunged a bit towards the lady and 'air snapped' again.....didnt touch the lady and if he wanted to properly bite her he could have done, but it took me by surprise. It seemed to be the man speaking that made Dylan react...I was wondering if he was protecting me - if he thought these people were too close to me?? Either way - its not acceptable.

Dylan was protecting himself not you, he hasn't learnt that you will protect him and keep him safe so he has to do it himself. In future I would put him on a lead in this situation and keep his attention as he was going past with you between Dylan and the other people. If they speak to Dylan, ignore them and concentrate on keeping Dylan's attention. You don't know what has happened to Dylan before he came into rescue and this could be were this is coming from.

I always keep a closed door between my dogs and the front door so my dogs are safe, my Collie/Lab would jump on people if given the chance so I don't give her it. If anyone is coming in to my home I put my dogs in another room until they have settled down then let them out. Since moving house they are worse but are improving, they have been through a lot this year. If Dylan is behind a closed door or gate, he can't do this and he is safe.

It would be interesting to know how the dog trainer handled this frhom Dylan.

With the other lady, Dylan was being good but he was there too long especially if the lady was giving him eye contact, for Dylan's safety I would have him behind a closed door or gate, he can still be taught how to behave when you go to the door.

Dylan is frightened and is trying to protect himself before anything happens to him, this can be turned round but will take a lot of work. I suspect TTouch will help Dylan, you can find a practitioner near you at http://www.tilleyfarm.co.uk/Practitioners.html. I find TTouch really helps and the are used to dealing with rescue dogs and their problems.

To be honest I am really worried about people coming to the house now - I just dont know how to play it. I adore my dog and want to do the best for him, but to be honest feel like I must be failing him or doing things very wrong if he has gone from being happy for people to come in, then not liking it when they came into the hall but being fine when they are in the living room, to being a little unpredictable. I am sure my vibes dont help as I know I tense up and this will project onto him. But I dont know whether I should just let him into the living room and ask people to stand up and totally ignore him. I dont think he would lunge at them if they stood in my living room and stood still, but there is stillk thart doubt.

You are feeling out of your depth with Dylan, we have all been there so understand, you can turn him round with our help. First you need to chill so open a bottle of wine and a box of chocolates and chill, the more relaxed you are the better it will be for dylan. There are quite a lot on here who were like you at first and are now totally relaxed and enjoying their very improved dogs.

I have started to do more things to make him not so reliant on me if that is the right word - I ignore him when i come back home, or when I go to another room and come back again, I only give him attention and playtime on my terms - not when he comes over demanding attention and bringing a toy up and throwing it in my lap!

This could be making Dylan worse, I always speak to my dogs as I come in but don't touch, etc, just carry on doing what I have to do, dogs are so pleased to see us when we first come in they think they have done something wrong if we don't and that really worries them.

If you wanted a cuddle and were ignored or told to go away how would you feel? We need cuddles for a reason just as Dylan needs your attention and play for a reason, that doesn't mean you have to give Dylan attention or play all day long, if I am busy and my dogs want something I acknowledge it with a word and a smile, dogs love us to smile, and carry on what I am doing. At first I am constantly doing this but eventually my dog goes away, they soon learn.

When a new dog comes into my home they follow me everywhere, I don't attempt to stop this, I do carry on doing what I want and don't talk when I am doing this apart from asking my dog to move. Eventually I become so boring to my dog that they go and find something more interesting to do, this is my new dog gaining confidence, he is finding that he can go and do something else that is fun to him, he doesn't need me to be there, there are more interesting things to do like chewing a bone.

I am so sorry to have wittered on for so long....I just wanted to try and give as much detail but realise it is now an essay!! I did have a behaviourist/psychologist lady out a copuple of weeks ago who seemed good, and she is coming out again on Thursday, but I would welcome advice from anbyone who has any ideas on how to sort this. I have been so upset this weekend...in tears most of yesterday as I feel helpless and I just want to help my little boy.

HUGS, what has this behaviourist told you to do with Dylan? Why I am asking there are far too many who don't understand dogs and how they learn and are making the problems worse not better. Many of us have had similar problems to what you are having and worked through them, not by ignoring our dogs though, that does make them worse, a lot worse and has been know to eventually turn a dog really aggressive because the dog doesn't understand what is happening and is frightened.

90% of aggression is fear, Dylan is a very frightened dog, you won't cure this fear by ignoring him, just the oposite, he will think he has done something wrong and get more worried.

I am having fear issues with one of my dogs at the moment, it has made typing this a lot more difficult but when she wants attention she gets it, only a few seconds but that seems to help her, she is back again soon because she is really frightened, if I ignored her she would become terrified and I couldn't cope with that.

Stay with us, we will help as much as we can, one of the pluses of this board is all the different views, all are positive methods that have worked for us and has been adapted to suit the dog.

Thank you if you have managed to get to the end of my mammoth post!![/quote]

[ladybug1802]

Oh thank you so much everyone for your posts - its warmed my heart!

TTouch sounds an interesting concept but to be honest, I am really not sure Dylan would let a stranger touch him like that - and I would hate the person to get bitten?

Actually the behaviourist lady I have been seeing said that Dylan does not see me as the person who protects him from dangers, therefore he sees it as his job to protect himself and me from any potential dangers which in turn makes him stressed. She also said that when in situations, such as the show I went to, it is important not to let him get into situations where he feels he has to snap....far better to have him walk round calmly, and me tell people to not touch him, and him to have a good experience. I did have a 'trainer' out once, before he started being quite this territorial in the home, and I got her out for tweaks with other training issues, and she suggested regarding his fixation with cats, that I drop a water bomb in front of him when he passes a cat, to distract him! I didnt agree with this so didnt do it and didnt get her out again....reckon with a dog with issues that kind of treatment will do me or him o favours at all!

I think I may have givenb the wrong imprtession however - I certainly dont completely ignore Dylan....in fact the opposite! He gets a lot of affection from me....but all I do is when I come home when I have left him, is I dont go in and immediately fuss over him. He had bad separation anxiety when I got him, and howled whenever I left him - and I got over this by gradually building up the time left from literally 30 seconds to an hour over a few months. It took ages and I didnt go out for the first few months...but I didnt care as I wanted to do all I could for him. Everytime I left him he got (and still does get left) with his kong, his kong wobbler treat ball and/or chews so he has something to occupy him. But the point being, it worked with me ignoring him when I came in initially so he doesnt think that its a huge deal me leaving. It worked.....and all I do now is ignore him when I first come back in the room, and get my parents to ignore him when he initially goes over there (he goes there 3 days a week or so)...and it has made him calmer and less manic for sure! But then he gets called over and given a big cuddle when he is calm, and he does get a lot of attention the rest of the time. I basically do what you have said - mainly for the confidence thing as he still does follw me round a lot so I want him to know that I am really doing nothing that he is going to find exciting!

Thank you so much again guys - I feel so much better now!

[Mattie]

Oh thank you so much everyone for your posts - its warmed my heart!

TTouch sounds an interesting concept but to be honest, I am really not sure Dylan would let a stranger touch him like that - and I would hate the person to get bitten?

You may be surprised how Dylan takes to it, with dogs that bite they use a falsh hand at first, you can pick it up yourself but much easier if shown. There is lots of information on the internet for TTouch, it may be worth trying yourself on him.

Actually the behaviourist lady I have been seeing said that Dylan does not see me as the person who protects him from dangers, therefore he sees it as his job to protect himself and me from any potential dangers which in turn makes him stressed. She also said that when in situations, such as the show I went to, it is important not to let him get into situations where he feels he has to snap....far better to have him walk round calmly, and me tell people to not touch him, and him to have a good experience.

She sounds like us on here

I did have a 'trainer' out once, before he started being quite this territorial in the home, and I got her out for tweaks with other training issues, and she suggested regarding his fixation with cats, that I drop a water bomb in front of him when he passes a cat, to distract him! I didnt agree with this so didnt do it and didnt get her out again....reckon with a dog with issues that kind of treatment will do me or him o favours at all!

I am so pleased you didn't do this to Dylan, it would have had a terrible effect on him, this is similar to the rattle bottle or tin, it makes fear issues worse.

{quote]I think I may have givenb the wrong imprtession however - I certainly dont completely ignore Dylan....in fact the opposite! He gets a lot of affection from me....but all I do is when I come home when I have left him, is I dont go in and immediately fuss over him. He had bad separation anxiety when I got him, and howled whenever I left him - and I got over this by gradually building up the time left from literally 30 seconds to an hour over a few months. It took ages and I didnt go out for the first few months...but I didnt care as I wanted to do all I could for him. Everytime I left him he got (and still does get left) with his kong, his kong wobbler treat ball and/or chews so he has something to occupy him. But the point being, it worked with me ignoring him when I came in initially so he doesnt think that its a huge deal me leaving. It worked.....and all I do now is ignore him when I first come back in the room, and get my parents to ignore him when he initially goes over there (he goes there 3 days a week or so)...and it has made him calmer and less manic for sure! But then he gets called over and given a big cuddle when he is calm, and he does get a lot of attention the rest of the time. I basically do what you have said - mainly for the confidence thing as he still does follw me round a lot so I want him to know that I am really doing nothing that he is going to find exciting!

Thank you so much again guys - I feel so much better now!

This is the internet and we can't see each other's body language, we also communicate this way but don't often realise it, this is why we often get mixed up with posts.

You and Dylan are going to be fine, you will get there with him

[ladybug1802]

I really hope so...I cant stop crying this evening again. I feel like I have put in a lot of work since I have had him with training and affection and trying to do everything right so he is happy, but I must have done something so wrong...he used to let people in the house OK and it has gradually been getting worse. I feel I have done this to him somehow and it kills me. He is now sleeping on his bed looking absolutely adorable....I have just been cuddling him on the floor and I just want him to be like that with other people - he loves cuddles and it makes him so happy.

When the behaviourist lady had been here doing some work with us for a while, he settled and was letting her stroke and fuss him....it just seems to take a fair while for him to trust that they are OK in here.

And you know what I have been thinking - which is a bit unfair - is I have been thinking of all the other people I know who have dogs and have done NO training whatseoever and their dogs do have issues, but not aggression! And I have done all the right things (I think - or tried to anyway!) and it seems so unfair that my poor little man has these issues.

[emmabeth]

It is actually probably all the good work you HAVE done that has made him feel confident enough to say 'no go away' to people when he feels threatened, rather than just shut down and lock himself away in his head when things get too much for him.

Now you KNOW he is feeling uncomfortable with certain things you can deal with it.

Just to add to what other people have said -

Stress levels time time to go down... days, not minutes. So if you have had a particularly stressful time/day/walk with him one day, whether it was successful, good stress, hard work.... or a whoopsie, bad incident sort of thing... the next day, back off a few levels and do really easy stuff so hes absolutely guaranteed to hae a few days of total success. Then try again.

Dont over face him - things like shows and busy parks are a lot to deal with and he may shut down a bit and LOOK like hes ok when really theres just so much going on he cant aggress at all of it, it still means hes stressed and isnt learning good things.

Dont give guests treats to give to him from their hands - in this way he can be coerced into getting out of his depth... in too close and then someone bends over him or gives him eye contact and he freaks out. Instead when you get to the stage of having a guest in.. have them gently toss treats to him, and of course you can give him treats too.

If every single meeting wtih a guest means rewards and fuss from you and treats tossed to him from the guest, and it NEVER means confrontation or fear for him. he will soon associate guests with good stuff. Preventing the bad things from happening in the first place is every bit as useful, if not more, as making sure the good stuff is associated with rewards!

[jacksdad]

It is actually probably all the good work you HAVE done that has made him feel confident enough to say 'no go away' to people when he feels threatened, rather than just shut down and lock himself away in his head when things get too much for him.

Had a similar experience to day. my dog acts out verse shuts down. With dogs he would go from looking "calm" to teeth displays and barking and lunging. With people it was often just bark, bark, bark. but it was still zero to bark.

Today, a neighbor wanted to meet jack and say hi. I told him Jack would most likely not let him and amazingly enough he stopped approaching. Jack did bark once or twice. then was quite. we chatted for a while, then he started to move closer to Jack again, before I could say anything Jack did that Chuff, Chuff noise. It was soooooo cool because Jack did not go strait to bark, bark, bark. he tried a lower intensity please don't come closer signal. The guy not knowing what it meant thought it was Jack being friendly, but I replied, no that is a low level please don't come closer I don't like this. it's a stress sign. Again, amazingly the guy stopped and did not try to approach any closer.

So, while it would have been even cooler if Jack had allowed him to pet him since that would mean he was over coming his fears, it was still progress. Jack didn't feel he had to bark, bark, bark freak out, his low level chuff's were enough to end the "threat".

progress doesn't always happen in a strait line or the way we wish. Sometimes there are detours and things sometimes seem worse just before they are better. Just keep up the good work, you will get there.

If you over came separation anxiety, this should be a "snap" by comparison.

[ladybug1802]

Oh those are really interesting points Emma - thank you! I hadnt thought about if guests give him treats it may be making him out of his depth in order to get the treat. Makes sense though!

I woke up at 4am this morning and then was lying there thinking about it all - trying to think about what I have done wrong, why he used to let people in the house fine and now he doesnt. It really upsets me to think it may be something I did....but its good to know Emma that it could simply be because he has built confidence and maybe thats why. Least I know he likes his home!

Its a shame really as I wish there were more dog minded people in my area who I could get to come round more often...but a lot of my doggy friends live further away and the friends in the nearby area arent really very experience with dogs, so I can imagine they wouldnt be too keen to be a bit of a guineau pig and they woukld probably be nervous, and I dont think it would be good for Dylan to sense negative energy.

Dont suppose anyone on here lives in Surrey in the Uk do they???

[ladybug1802]

Just another quick question if you guys dont mind??

Do you think it would be best for a while to not let anyone stroke Dylan , to avoid him getting that 'worried' look on his face and then having to snap? He doesnt do it with everyone, and until now I have sort of been thinking maybe the more people I get to greet him in the correct way when we are out, the better it will be for him and will get him used to it....but now I am wondering if this isnt the way to do it? Is it best to avoid him getting into situations where he feels worried at all, and then maybe the less he feels like this, the more he might start to 'forget' to be like that? I dont mean fprget of course....but does that make sense??

[Nettle]

Yes, absolutely, do NOT let anyone "take" a stroke from him. This is the difference between giving affection and taking it.

When Dylan wants to interact with someone, HE will go to THEM. Don't let people go up to him - let him choose with whom he wants to interact.

When he does go up to someone, bear in mind that he might get out of his depth and wish he hadn't. So they still must not touch him. They can look at him briefly (no strong eye contact) say something quietly like Hi Dylan, no squeaking or screeching or loud noises, and they should not do anything else. When HE touches THEM, they do the same - just a quick and quiet acknowledgment.

When Dylan is confident enough to touch them strongly, they can give him a stroke or a chest tickle, but no touching his head and no patting.

[ladybug1802]

Thank you Nettle! That is great to know.....until now I suppose I have been thinking (wrongly) that by getting more people to greet him he will get to think that humans are not a threat....but you are right, the more it happens where people touch him and he feels uncomfortable, the more often he is going to 'react' and then the more 'nervous' he will be...I suppose he will associate people coming to greet him with him feeling uncomfortable.

I will just say to people that please could they not touch him as I am working on building his confidence in people.

Are you in the Uk Nettle?