My GSD Lunges at visitors

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Liz & Koa
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:05 pm
Location: MA, USA

My GSD Lunges at visitors

Post by Liz & Koa »

Hello All,

I have a two year old GSD who lunges at visitors when they come and go.

The facts are these:

History: Koa was at a puppy mill until he was 7 1/2 months old, then saved by Save A Dog, and we adopted him at 8 months old. Needless to say he had some issues.

Progress: Considering he could not go up stairs when we adopted him, he has done great. Completed basic obedience 1 & 2, agility, and we are starting a rally class this week.

Diagnosis: I took him to my vet, who is a behavior specialist. She came to the conclusion that Koa is showing signs of fear aggression. She suggested that I use a Gentle Leader and follow the "Protocol of Deference" plan. She had an assistance come to practice with me, but I think the assistant kind of went by her own plan. We started outside our house, with her and a neighbor tossing cheese at him when ever he was relaxed. This went on for one month of Sundays. My husband felt it was not doing any good. I really didn't see any change either. So, now I have started having nieghbors come over once a day for about five minutes. The first time he lunged once, the second night twice. My husband came to the conclusion that he has getting mad the cheese was not being thrown fast enough.

I have read up on the Protocol of Deference and I, kind of, understand the concept, but I don't understand how it corrects the dog when he is reactive.

When people come in he lunges at them and when they go to leave, he does the same thing. I keep him on his Gentle Leader and am going to start having people ignore him.

My husband wants me to go to the prong collar, but I don't want to do that unless I have no other option. From all that I have read, that can make a dog with fear aggression worse.

None of my friend will come to visit, and there is just no warning or any way to know what sets him off.

I am at the end of my rope.

I feel like my vet gave the info, but is too busy to walk me through it step by step.

Looking forward to any help you can give me.

Liz & Koa :roll:
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Nettle
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Post by Nettle »

Please would you explain what this 'Protocol of Deference' means and what you have been doing?
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Mattie
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Re: My GSD Lunges at visitors

Post by Mattie »

Liz & Koa wrote: I keep him on his Gentle Leader and am going to start having people ignore him.
Please can you explain a bit more about this? Do you have the Gentle Leader on him when he is lunging at people?

My husband wants me to go to the prong collar, but I don't want to do that unless I have no other option. From all that I have read, that can make a dog with fear aggression worse.
You are right, a prong collar will make him much worse.
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ckranz
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Post by ckranz »

Can you give a better description of your dog's behavior emphesising when and what he is reponding too?

How is he when people, know or ring the bell?
How is he if he comes into a room with strangers (your friends and other people)?
How are your friends and neighbors responding to Koa? (yes you may need to train your family and friends).
Could he be responding to percieved threat from your greeting and sending off behaviors for friends and family? (hugging, kissing etc...) He may see those as a threat to you and be attemping to portect you. (Again look at this from your dog's eyes and not your own).


One of the problems with head collars is they can make a dog feel even more uncomfortable. I would loose the head collar and go for an easywalk harness, sensation harness or a sporn harness. They provide very nice control without the risks of neck injuries associated with lunging dogs with head collars.

Since you like reading:
"On Talking Terms with dogs: Calming Signals" Turid Rugaas
"Culture Clash" Jean Donaldson
"The Other End of the Leash" Patricia McConnell

While cheese may be easy as a reward it may not be of high enough value to Koa. Try a meat based baby food (lamb and veal work best for me). 1 reward is 1 lick from the jar. Yes it can get a bit messy on your hands, but belive me baby food is very hard for many dogs to ignore.

Second, If your dog is getting too wound up, you are progressing your training plan much too quickly. When working on a counter condition plan you cannot go too slow. It is much better to repeat the same training for 4-6 additional weeks, than it is to skip a head 1 week. Make sure there is pleanty of space between your guests and Koa. Refrain from hugging and kissing guests as this might make Koa not comfortable....you can use counter condition to desensitize Koa to this as well, but work that seperatly.

I cannot emphesize strongly enough to not use a prong or other punishment based collar.

Dog sees a person come in and is stressed because un familiar people are a little scary. Out of that fear he lunges and is met with pain and discomfort from a prong. Dog concludes that he is correct in his fear because strangers pring him pain and discomfort. He has every right to be afraid....you see where this leads. Do not do this for your dog.

Positive (+R) training, and counter condition work to change the dogs view of his enviornment. Stranger comes in, stangers mean babyfood time...mommy whre is my baby food, look I am sitting and happy because I know its treat time.
Liz & Koa
Posts: 102
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Location: MA, USA

Koa

Post by Liz & Koa »

Hi,

Yes, I have the Gentle Leader on him when people come over because he nipped my neighbor and I can't take the chance of it happening again. Granted she bent over him in our front yard, and he did not liked it. I do have a Gentle Walker, but have not used it lately because I want to control his head.

As for how does he react when people come in, I can't say, because people won't come over. It's a vicious circle. I need people to correct it, but they are fearfull. As for my husband, me, and also one neighbor who has a dog that he plays with, he is great, very affectionate. So I know he has it in him.

The Protocol of Deference is when the dog defer's to you. Looks to you for instructions on how to handle the situation, so he is not stressed worrying about what to do. There is no yelling, jerking, scolding, no negativity at all.

Thanks Again.

Liz
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Mattie
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Re: Koa

Post by Mattie »

Liz & Koa wrote:Hi,

Yes, I have the Gentle Leader on him when people come over because he nipped my neighbor and I can't take the chance of it happening again. Granted she bent over him in our front yard, and he did not liked it. I do have a Gentle Walker, but have not used it lately because I want to control his head.

As for how does he react when people come in, I can't say, because people won't come over. It's a vicious circle. I need people to correct it, but they are fearfull. As for my husband, me, and also one neighbor who has a dog that he plays with, he is great, very affectionate. So I know he has it in him.
I am confused, you have a Gentle Leader on him for when people come to your home but nobody comes. :lol: What was he doing when people did come over?
The Protocol of Deference is when the dog defer's to you. Looks to you for instructions on how to handle the situation, so he is not stressed worrying about what to do. There is no yelling, jerking, scolding, no negativity at all.

Thanks Again.

Liz
How do you get a dog to do this?

Sorry about the questions but we really need as much information as possible to help because we can't see what is happening.
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ckranz
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Location: San Diego CA

Post by ckranz »

Without anyother distractions, how does Koa react while wearing the gentle leader?

Does he continually paw at it?
Does he continually rub against you?

If so, these are signs that the GL is adding to his stress levels. Adding additional stress (outside of training) when dealing with a fearfull or shy dog can make things much more difficult and progress extremely slow.

While Koa has his issues, no one, should be coming close enough for physical contact. Its very clear that he is uncomfortable and putting him in a position where people can reach out and touch him is putting him on the defensive.

Do not use a flexi lead, Use a standard 6' lead to maintain control and ensure that everyone not living in your home stays 10' away from him. That give you a safety buffer of 4'.

How does he react to people when you are out?

If he expresses similar anxiety when out, you have many options for working on training while out. I would recommend a quieter, less populated area to start, before moving through navigation through crowds.

Getting a professional trainer to assist as well could be of benefit. They can both observe what you are doing, act as the stranger and help you adjust your training plan as needed. When looking for a trainer, make sure you find one who understands what training methods you are willing to use...ie if you are using positive reinforcement based training that has been suggested, find a trainer who uses those methods and not one who uses punishment based training. Perhaps your vet might be able to assist you.
Liz & Koa
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Location: MA, USA

Post by Liz & Koa »

He is fine with the Gentle Leader when we are walking. It does not seem to bother him, but when he gets mad, it bothers him.

People have started to come over to help me, so that is when I put it on at home. Otherwise he does not have it on.

Oh, and I am using a 6' leash.

Thanks
Liz & Koa
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:05 pm
Location: MA, USA

Post by Liz & Koa »

He is fine with the Gentle Leader when we are walking. It does not seem to bother him, but when he gets mad, it bothers him.

People have started to come over to help me, so that is when I put it on at home. Otherwise he does not have it on.

Oh, and I am using a 6' leash.

Thanks
ckranz
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:18 pm
Location: San Diego CA

Post by ckranz »

This may be a fun exercise that will help us get a better picture of what is going on with your dog.

Can you go through a complete detailed description. Assume I am coming over as a guest. I have just parked on your side of the street and you hear my car door shut.

What do you and your hubby do, and how does your dog react as I approach your house?


I am at your front door now. I am knocking:
What is your dog doing?
What are you and hubby doing in response to your dog

Assuming hubby is holding the dog on leash. You have opened the door and your dog can see me in the door way. I have not crossed the threashold.

What is your dog doing?
What is your hubby doing in response to your dog
What are you doing?

I now put a foot across the threshold of the door.
How does your dog respond?
How do you and your hubby respond to your dog?

Upon invitation I enter into your living room/den area for a visit and sit in a chair or on the couch?
How does your dog respond?
How do you and your hubby respond to your dog?

I have been sitting and we have been chatting for 20 minutes now.
How is your dog behaving?
How are you and hubby responding to his behavior?

I need to refresh myself in your bathroom and stand up.
How does your dog respond to my standing and walking deeper into your house?
How are you and hubby responding to your dog?

Its time to depart so I walk over to the door and bid good bye.
How does your dog react?
How do you and hubby react in response?

Please note, at all times I am avoiding eye contact with Koa, and not trying to engage him in any way. I am merely ignoring him for the purpose of this exercise.

Matty, Missymay, Emmabeth and Nettle if there are any other things either of you can think of to add in terms of a visit or a guest coming over and ignoring the dog you would like to add, please do.

I think once we can get a realistic picture not only of Koa's response tot he above, but the owner's response as well, we can help create or adjust a training plan to better fit their circumstance.

Liz,
The detail in the answers I am looking for is very very specific detail.

e.g. of what I am looking for in terms of detail.
Koa hears the car door shut and his ear perk up as he looks through the window to see what changed outside. His gives small slight barks and growls as you approach the house.

My hubby is grabbing the leash and GL and grabbing some of Koa's best treats. I am trying to get Koa's attention from the window by calling his name repeatedly but he is ignoring me. Once hubby has the GL leash and treat, he joins me in trying to get Koa's attention and our voices get louder in an effort to help Koa "hear us".

end example

Don't be shy about putting in any frustration you feel, or any aversives you might be using (after calling is name 20 times to no avail we sound off a can of air, sqeak a horn, grab his collar and pull him etc... We need to have a complete picture as things are. We have all made plenty of our own mistakes (I know I have) and can help you through all this, but an honest reply is needed for honestly good answers.
emmabeth
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Post by emmabeth »

Excellent questions ckranz, the answers to those would be extremely helpful.

I cant think of any to add asides from background detail as to how Koa is himself, in other situations - is he a clingy dog, does he follow someone around a lot given the opportunity to do so, is he always by someones feet if they sit down or stay in one place for a while.

Or is he more aloof, happy to settle down and let household life go on around him, not feeling the need to jump up and follow whenever someone moves around the house.

Also, apologies if i missed this - what is his currently level of general training and how much exercise and training does he do per day.

Im mildly concerned by this 'protocol of deference' - on paper what you describe 'the dog defers to you. Looks to you for instructions on how to handle the situation so he is not stressed worrying about what to do'... great and we all wish to achieve this.

It sets off my 'eep' alert though - i dont know why and that might well be misplaced, but its entirely possible to be negative and squash or depress a dog and make any lack of confidence worse without ever yelling, jerking or scolding them... and sadly there are some horrible things done to dogs that are dressed up by pretty, humane sounding titles.

I am also fairly sure that you saw no improvement with the method you were using because as someone already mentioned it was too much, too soon and also, the criteria for reward too high.

You would see greater progression if the trigger (people) was kept at a greater distance from the dog, so that he is then set up NOT to react... In having people so close that he lunges, he is being set up to fail and so the opportunities to reward him will be fewer because his stress levels are too high, add in the fact that he knows there is reward available but is too stressed to be able to figure out why he isnt getting them, which in turn will again make him more likely to react and lunge to the trigger which is too close.

Move the people further away, change the criteria from 'relaxed, no reaction' to 'recognises the trigger but does not lunge or bark (meaning you reward any other behaviour but lunge or bark)'.

Dont change both criteria together, if you move the people closer dont also expect total relaxation from the dog, or alternatively if you want a greater degree of relaxation work longer at the safe distance where the dog does not lunge or bark.

Baby steps, is the short way of saying all of htat, and being very clear in your mind as to what you wish to acheive at each stage. It is not sufficient to just have 'dont behave this way' as your goal, because your dog knows no other way to behave in this situation, and he needs to be shown that something else is possible.
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

I looked up "Protocol of Deference" but couldn't find any instructions on how to do this which makes me quite anxious if people are trying to do this without any instructions. Can you say how this is done please?

ckranz has put up all the questions I wanted to ask so thanks, saves me typing them out. :lol:

If your dog is flipping out with a Gentle Leader on, he could do serious damage to his neck, this is the problem with anything on a dog's head. The lunging about on the end of a lead, even a short one, really can do a lot of damage and may even mean your dog has to be pts. A basket muzzle, the other type a dog can still bite, and a good harness will be much better because it won't do the damage to your dog.
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Liz & Koa
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Koa

Post by Liz & Koa »

Hi Ckranz, Mattie, and Emmabeth,

First I want to thank you all so much for all you input. It is great.

Now, to answer your questions:

I have people call when they are coming over so I know what time to expect them. A minute or two before they come I put the Gentle Leader on Koa and say "We have a friend coming over" He whines with exitement just a bit and goes to the door. Then I open my door so just the storm door is closed. I have him sit next to me while on a 6' leash. I give him cheese or liver treats when he is looking at me or just sitting quitely, but as soon as he gets sight of a person he starts to bark crazy. I tell him "It's okay, it's our friend", and if he pulls I tell him no. I have the person wait outside while he calms down, then I let them come in, all the while I am talking to them through the door and trying my best to ignore the rude behavior. When he sits, I tell then to come in. If he starts again, we continue to talk and when he sits and is quite, he gets a treat. This all takes place in about 5-6 minutes, there are some times when he will lay down and relax and that is when I tell the person to leave and I praise him as he watches them go with no reaction. I have had a few people come into the kitchen, we do this by going through the motions I described above and then I have him heal to his bed in the kitchen, sit on it and have the person come in and stand and talk to me. There has been a few times when he has just sat and been fine and a few times when, seemingly, for no reason he tries to lunge.

When my vet had her assistant coming over it was once a week, so now she has told me to do very short sessions every day.

When we are out for a walk and we see a person I have him heal and he is fine or sometimes I have him sit, if I think it is a high stressor (kid on a bike, scary man) and have him "Watch me" with treats and praise. He is fine.

I am thinking of getting him a high reward toy, and only giving it to him when we have guests. Do you think it might take his mind of it?

I also, like the baby food idea, I will try some.

As for the Protocol of Deference method, I can't really explain it, that's what frustrates me. My vet gives me this method and a few pieces of paper, but it does not go step by step for this behavior. From what I have seen on line, behaviorist use it all the time and swear by it. I don't know, it stinks when you are trying to do the right thing, but you don't know what you are doing.

I must say I do keep my cool with Koa. A few times he has gotten fresh and overly exited and I have to raise my voice and he does not like that. He will go lay down and wait for me to give him the okay. I realize he really is still a puppy and is probalby loving his life, all things considered.

Koa goes to Doggie Day Care 2-3 days a week and he loves it. On those days we also walk at night for about 20 minutes. On the days he does not go, we walk 30 minutes in the morning and 45 minutues at night with a little off leash ball play in the yard or at the park. He gets plenty of excersize and mind games. Loves the Kong, we play "Smell and find it" I have him smell and leave a treat, tell him to stay and then I hide it, and then go to him and release him to find it. He loves it. It's a great game.

We have also had my husband ring the bell and at the same time I give Koa a treat so he won't see the bell as a problem, but we don't practice this enought, so he does go nuts if the bell goes off, but what dog doesn't. I don't mind that as long as he will be quiet when I give the command. I tought him Quiet by squirting him in the hip or the side with a water gun when he wasn't looking to take his mind off of whatever he was barking at. It worked great, and he had no idea where it came from, so I was not the bad guy. We did this when we first got him and he was barking in his crate at night. It took two squirts and no more barking at night. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind him barking, but once, twice three times is enough. When I say it is "Okay" it is okay.

Thanks again for all your help, I am sure there will be a happy ending.

Everyone have good weekend, and I look forward to your response.

Liz
Liz & Koa
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Post by Liz & Koa »

Sorry, don't know why my post is there three times. I did get a debug message before I sent it.

Liz

*Mod Edit* - its a weird bug we have but weirder still ive just deleted something like 8 duplicates of that post and now for an even weirder reason you appear to have a post count of 0... which is impossible because ... ooh i dunno. interwebnet gremlins again...!
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Nettle
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Post by Nettle »

Can you know what happens at doggie daycare, both the routine and how he reacts to visitors/other dogs, and how he is treated when he reacts? What happens when he first arrives and when you pick him up to take him home again?

We're getting there :) thanks for all the extra info.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

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