Almost 7 month old Pup

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Suzette
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by Suzette »

I am far and away not the expert here, but I think you might have a middle ground option with your dog. Instead of all or nothing when it comes to on leash greetings, take a middle ground stance. When you come upon a dog that would be appropriate for him to meet and greet, no matter how well it is going, always simply allow your dog one brief sniff, then quickly but happily walk away. this way, he gets to greet the dog, but you get him out of Dodge before anything unpleasant can happen. This reinforces that greetings are good but does not allow time for inappropriate behavior from him, so that does not get reinforced. Win/win. All the best with your dog!
My avatar is Piper, my sweet Pembroke Corgi. b. 5/11/11
Lotsaquestions
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by Lotsaquestions »

Thanks Suzette, I put that into practice today. 3 second greeting only, less if it was the cockerpoo who sprant up to him off lead and rolled over IN HIS FACE. Merlin thought it was christmas, wagged his little tail, and proceeded to try and step on top of her. Nope, not today, oh how he whined... Damn spaniels! :roll: The other greetings went beautifully as he was walking around with his OAP buddies. Quick 'Hi, I'm Merlin, sniff bums? ok cool, bye... CHICKEN!'. I really don't know where Merlin would be without those OAP dogs and their owners, every adolescent dog who has been over socialised needs them! They all sit next to each other to get treats from the owners, its really sweet.

One of his usual play friends has suddenly turned into a teenager (10 month old large breed, intact male). As horrible as this sounds, I was SO HAPPY to see him behave exactly how Merlin did when his marbles dropped. Of course I was comforting to his owner who now has to keep his new found monster on a permanent longline as he shook his head wondering where his gorgeous puppy went, but secretly relieved Merlin isn't an alien. We tried to have them play, but Merlin, being smaller than his buddy, got bowled over very roughly (just like he used to do with smaller dogs.) so we had to lead them back up pronto. I guess it really is a macho, macho adolescent thing. He also interacted really gently with the same puppy he was a jerk to before, letting the puppy chase him and jump on him. I'm trying really hard to make sure all of his encounters start with calmness, which I think is helping. The incident with the spaniel on the weekend was when he was aroused but sleepy, stressed from the car ride there (he hates cars) and all around overstimulated I think.
Lotsaquestions
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by Lotsaquestions »

New development: I've noticed a pattern.

The dogs he gets all growly about are all adolescent, intact male dogs (around 6 months +). Not only does he stand on top of them, but he will rugby tackle them down and hump them, especially if they jump up at me. If they jump up at me he will tackle them (literally pounce on them growling). Male dogs older than himself, or neutered, he is fine with. He doesn't 'fight' or bite them in any way and the other dogs don't get worried about it (they tend to just ignore him or run back to him when I seperate them), it is open mouth growling and shoving, but he is definately more aggressive than playing and there are no play bows. It got particularly bad today with a dog he is usually fine with (have known each other for a month or so now). 6 Month old male, intact, I walked him off and he calmed down and they were both perfectly fine again, then a 6 month old intact lab came along and he did the same to the lab and I took him home. All other dogs he is perfectly fine with, even a 10 month old intact lab and a 10 month old intact cross. Female dogs, if intact, he obsesses over a bit if they're close to a season but isn't growly. Female spayed dogs he's really, really polite to. Same with older males, neutered or not.

Should I neuter him or is this normal? If its normal and doesn't call for neutering, how should I proceed? He goes on socialisation group walks once a month and loads of dogs there are intact. He's not had a problem before, but I'm concerned he will now. I really, really don't want him to be a figher.

P.S I don't think he's guarding me, since he's not bothered about any other dog or younger puppies jumping up at me or coming to me for affection. Most the time he just walks away when I'm stroking another dog.
JudyN
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by JudyN »

Welcome to my world....

Neutering may well not make a difference. In fact, it might make him feel more insecure and feel the need to show just how macho he is even more ('Mine are bigger, I'm just not sure where they are,' says Jasper :lol: )

Avoid, avoid, avoid - at least those he isn't familiar with.

Jasper used to be downright aggressive with young unneutered dogs. Now what he wants to do is put them in their place with a bit of verbals, a paw on the back and a steely glare, and I can call him away when he does this. Generally I stop it going this far, but if the other dog is confident enough not to be scared and easy-going enough not to retaliate (and the owner is OK with it), I can let Jasper explain the rules of the relationship to the other dog and then they get on just fine. For a long time, though, I'd have to try to avoid any off-lead meeting until I'd worked out whether the other dog was young, male & entire. If nothing else it was good practice for getting him back and on lead!

Another reason for avoiding these incidents now is that dogs Jasper decided he hated when he was young, he still hates now, and reacts as if he was that Angry Young Man again. Based on my experience, I suspect that Merlin will continue to be fine with the intact dogs that he already knows.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Lotsaquestions
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by Lotsaquestions »

And I thought having a boy dog would be easy!

I'll avoid all intact dogs he doesn't yet know. He's not the only dog to be doing this, so I found out. The lab he had a go at apparently did the same thing the day before to another adolescent dog, but actually bit them (no blood, but was latched on). The Lab's owner told me 'he can give it, so he can take it' as Merlin was throwing his weight around. I was worried it would escalate so I called Merlin to me and had both dogs (since the lab was running after Merlin anyway) sitting to calm them down before I took Merlin away. They were fine together sitting until the Lab jumped up on me and Merlin tackled him to the ground. I calmed them again, put Merlins lead on, and had the Lab's owner call the Lab away.

The dog who the lab 'bit' was there too (Merlin's intact male friend he's known for a month or so) and he joined in on bullying the lab as Merlin pinned him down, so there was testosterone flying everywhere. There was no fighting, but there was alot of macho behaviour. The way other owners reacted makes me think I am overreacting since they didn't seem bothered in the slightest, but the growling was quite intense and it was an instant dislike towards the Lab. As soon as the Lab ran into the group, Merlin just went RAAAR and jumped on him and chased him.

Is this all fairly normal for his age/intactness? I've read articles saying intact dogs fight, and a 10:0 fight:bite ratio is normal, and that I shouldn't stop socialisation because of it. But I've also read of dogs who get a taste for it, and it doesn't stop, and they end up being unable to be around dogs unless on a lead well into adulthood. I've owned an intact male dog before but we adopted him after his teenage phase, and he was the most mellow dog I've ever known around any dog (Lurcher), my hope is Merlin will have that dogs confidence to be so content (I know he'll never be Lurcher content) but right now all I see is insecurity coming out as OTT bullying.
JudyN
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by JudyN »

Yes, I'd say it's fairly normal, but it's still not good to let them 'work it out for themselves' at this age (despite what many people will tell you) because it may escalate and the dogs may get a taste for it. I can occasionally let J and another dog work it out for themselves now because I know he's not interested in getting into a proper fight and also that he's excellent at only being bossy with dogs who won't retaliate. He's nearly eight, so I've had a lot of practice at predicting what he's going to do! Merlin is still very young and learning how to be a dog, and these experiences will teach him that this is normal.

So I don't think it's something to be worried about - I'd just call Merlin back when it happens and tell the other owners you'd rather he didn't learn that bullying/bossing is OK. They may not agree, but they should accept that that's how you want to handle it.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Lotsaquestions
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by Lotsaquestions »

Ok, that makes sense. I've been calling him back / interrupting every time but I think Merlin may already think that this is the way to behave since he's still doing it and its getting worse. I hope that isn't the case. I hope everything I've been doing, even if it looks overprotective, pays off when his testosterone calms down. Merlin does sound similar in some ways to Jasper (insecure at heart, really not interested in an actual fight), so if your boy got a taste for it so quickly perhaps Merlin has. :(

I've bought him a new attachment to his collar so I don't have to collar grab, which I think made him a little more anxious about being seperated (if he didn't respond to his recall, which to his credit is rare now we've gone right back to basics and swapped the word). I think I might have accidently taught the 17 week old puppy his new recall aswell, since he also comes running when Merlin does. I have to treat both because of Merlin's resource guarding tendancies with high value food, though he's never had an issue taking treats or eating whatever he finds on the floor near other dogs I'd rather not start any problems by having a young puppy try and grab his treat first!

I've heard of pinning a word to the action you are interrupting so he really understands what he did wasn't acceptable, which I haven't done yet. I'm not too sure how I would go about it, would saying 'Enough' and then recalling work? I'd rather not use 'leave it' since, because of his guarding, I'm doing a positive 'leave it' only. Basically leave that and you'll get this amazing awesome thing and most the time also that.
JudyN
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by JudyN »

Lotsaquestions wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:12 pmI've heard of pinning a word to the action you are interrupting so he really understands what he did wasn't acceptable, which I haven't done yet. I'm not too sure how I would go about it, would saying 'Enough' and then recalling work?
That's not something I've done so I couldn't say, and I suspect Merlin is bright enough to work out what it was he was doing when the fun stopped. I'm not sure it would count as purely positive. Doesn't mean it wouldn't work though, and of course you will then be calling him back and rewarding him for stopping/coming back. One (not 100% positive) trainer suggested the word 'enough!' to stop a dog whining (some lurchers like to keep up a long whiny commentary all day long) as it sounds just a little growly. Which is possibly not a good thing...
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Lotsaquestions
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by Lotsaquestions »

I asked my trainer today about the bullying, and she said permanent longline so I can interrupt asap. Because its only been happening for just over a week she didn't seem to think it would take long to retrain his brain. Even though I kept interrupting him, he was still rewarded in the time it took me to get over there / recall away. I am feeling a little relieved, since just after training, we met a 7 month old golden who still has his bits and I got talking to the owner. He does exactly the same. Merlin tried to jump up on him, I interrupted immediately on a lead, and then Merlin lay down and crawled over to the golden and they had a sweet little wrestle. The lovely playful boy is still there somewhere!

I will let you know how I progress incase anyone reading this has similar worries.
Lotsaquestions
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by Lotsaquestions »

Its me again...

Merlin has been doing amazingly with his bullying, but something horrible happened today that I need advice/reassurance for if possible. I'm freaking out a bit!

Merlin got into a dog fight with another boy. They were posturing, then Merlin broke away, then the other dog went for him. Merlin ran away again, but before I could grab the other dog (the other dogs owner was just letting this happen) he attacked Merlin again and they went into a fight. No blood was drawn, neither was physically hurt and emotionally Merlin recovered quickly (or he seemed to, before I could collect him since I had to stand there with this woman's snarling Yorkie in my arms until she decided to actually come and get it Merlin decided to continue the chase game he was playing with his usual friends). Meanwhile the owner slowly walked over smiling (you have no idea how FURIOUS I am with her!) and I was able to take Merlin home.

I'm worried he will now decide to attack first, or that he should now fight boy dogs. I have no idea how common it is for teenage intact boys to fight, and because Merlin can posture (they were posturing before this happened) I am seriously considering neutering before the behaviour becomes totally learned (if it hasn't already) but I am also terrified that neutering him now will a) not help at all and b) make him timid and fear aggressive.
JudyN
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by JudyN »

I'm sorry this happened ((((((Hugs)))))) From the other woman's attitude I suspect her dog has previous history but (not stereotyping at all here :wink: ) she thought it was all OK because it was just a small cute Yorkie.

I really don't think this is going to affect Merlin much, if at all. And the fact that neither dog was injured and you managed to separate them without getting bitten yourself suggests they were actually pulling their punches. Stick to managing him as much as you can and I'm sure he'll come through this stage and out the other side just fine. If you neuter him now, other dogs are less likely to attack him, but it might not curb his behaviour, it may be detrimental, and you can't change your mind and stick them back on again.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Lotsaquestions
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by Lotsaquestions »

The only 'injury' I got was a slight bruise on my thumb (that has gone already) because a tooth knocked into it, not even a scratch otherwise (and I got fully stuck in). I checked the Yorkie over when it was in my arms, and he was fine. Merlin also checked out fine at home. If they were pulling their punches is this just a teenage squabble and nothing more serious? I have no idea if the other dog was neutered since I didn't stick around to ask, and also didn't check myself! I would assume it wasn't since there was posturing, unless this is a common thing regardless.

I am really careful with who he interacts with, which is why I'm so annoyed about this. My first instinct was to take Merlin away when the other dog approached, since he did seem 'uneasy' with him (Merlin walked up to sniff, but stopped and then immediately left the Yorkie alone with a little bit of worried whale eye). Then the Yorkie was let off lead and seemed to want Merlin to chase him, then it all went downhill fast. Next time I'll trust my first instinct.

Thank you for your reassurance, I hope, hope, hope this doesn't damage him. Unfortunately Merlin is the type of dog to learn nothing from 20 positive experiences, but a whole lot from one bad one.
JudyN
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by JudyN »

I think the important thing is that Merlin didn't want to rumble, he'd have preferred to avoid the conflict. But when the Yorkie went for him, he was left with little choice - I get the impression that dogs are reluctant simply to scarper because then they'll get bitten on the bum and aren't in a position to defend themselves. Sometimes Jasper and another dog will be eyeballing each other and I've a feeling the first dog to turn away at this stage will get snarked at, so they're both reluctant to back off even if neither want to fight. Of course, there may well be a bit of not wanting to lose face as well :wink:

I've been lucky enough not to have seen a 'proper' dog fight but they can result in really bad injuries to all involved so I would guess this wasn't in the same league at all.

Merlin still sounds like he's doing just great and learning manners, but he's still an adolescent and there will be days when it all goes wrong. Once you've thought through whether you could have avoided it and what to do next time, the most important thing is to help yourself to a large gin or slice of chocolate cake - preferably both - and relax.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Shalista
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by Shalista »

Oh @lotsa that most have been terrifying. my 12 lb rat terrier has been on the receiving end of a "play" from my a VERY large pit bull that knocked him clear head over heels, rolling him like a rattito in his leash (much to his great displeasure) that was scary enough and i was 90% sure the pit bull was just being overly friendly. i can't imagine how scary it must have been if you knew they were fighting!
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
Lotsaquestions
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Re: Almost 7 month old Pup

Post by Lotsaquestions »

Oh god that sounds horrible Shalista! I bet the pit bull felt like a big strong boy picking on a little terrier aswell.

I took Merlin out to his OAP friends and the young boys he feels comfortable with. I watched him like a hawk, and he seems no worse for wear BUT I noticed some more posturing from him than usual, which I interrupted as soon as it happened and nothing came of it. Its clear that while he's fine, he's also not fine. I hope this lingering 'I need to prove myself even more' isn't a permanent change to his personality. On the plus side, that while he was posturing more, his bullying was none existent. He was exceptionally polite (for an 8month old). I've also been working hard on 'charging a tug toy' which has helped loads. I'm no longer mean old mummy stoping his fun that he has to try and dodge and ignore, but instead a walking ball on a rope!

Judy, you were right about the Yorkie, I asked the other owners and apparently he's been starting fights left, right and centre. The owner had a stroke not long back which accounts for her behaviour. It is also all boys that the Yorkie fights with, young ones with their bits.
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