Front Door & Other Issues

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YorkshireLass
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Front Door & Other Issues

Post by YorkshireLass »

Hi everyone,

I was hoping I could get a bit of advice for my rescue boy, Bear. I'll give you some background info first.

We welcomed Bear into our home a little over 14 months ago. We think he's a mastiff/lab cross, we can't be sure on this though. He's about 2-4 years old, again nothing certain. He'd been in the rescue boarding kennels for 10 months and previous to that he was found straying. Starving from the sounds of it as he was skin and bone. From the off, Bear was a very anxious boy. The first two weeks with us he spent with whale eyes and his tail firmly between his legs. Taught him sit and down, moved on to sit stay and then taught him touch, which he does extremely gently.

The problems really started when he lunged at someone wearing dark clothing and a hoodie. We knew from that moment he was reactive and we started focusing our training on helping him through. Kissy noise to distract and avoiding things we knew he disliked, the list got longer. We really saw it during a park walk where he lunged at a horse, a man with breathing difficulties walking funny, a mobility scooter, a barking dog, a group of shouting high energy teenagers and his own shadow. At 14 months with us I can hand on heart say he's a reformed character. He goes past everything he used to react to and he's calm. If he is unsure he looks at us and then keeps going with a waggy disposition. We are still vigilant though because reactivity really does come and go. We also encourage him to choose where he wants to go, it makes for very interesting walks!

So all that in mind, we have some lingering problems. The main one at the moment is the front door. He barks, snarls and generally gets very worked up when people knock at the door. Now we've tried everything that we could find. We brought in a trainer who suggested we go to the door and say 'thank you' before he gets into a huge barking fit. I sat poised to do this every time he went nuts. It's not helped if anything it's made the situation worse. I tried doing the exercise where you teach them to stay in one place when there's a knock at the door. Bear is too bright for that. He is perfect, laid down and lets a person knock and does not react. He'll even stay where he is when you open the door. As soon as he knows it is someone he is familiar with he just doesn't react. Problem solved! Nope not one bit! And we've exhausted the neighbours willing to play door knocker!

So, what on earth have we done wrong? And how do we change our training to help him? At the moment I am having to keep him behind another door so that we don't have our postie complain or worse refuse to deliver to us. If someone drops a leaflet through the letterbox 80% of the time he doesn't react. Sometimes he lifts his head or quietly grumbles but no barking. Keeping him separated from the front door isn't really a long term answer as you'd need to do it all the time just in case of an unexpected delivery.

On a less urgent track we also have an issue, again in the house. Both me and my husband have chronic medical conditions, both under control for the most part. I have type 1 diabetes and my husband has asthma. Now in the odd occasion we need help we've had an issue with Bear taking offence and getting between us. Growling and springing at the person trying to help. He's never bitten, just made it known he feels that the helper is threatening the person needing help. Do we pretend we need help and counter condition his behaviour? So far getting him to sit works 40% of the time but when he's in an aroused state he just isn't focused enough.

It seems to me that he's calmed down on the walks but we've managed to worsen him in the house. He seems overall happy, he sleeps to competitive level and he settles nicely when he's left on his own. But then he has moments where I wonder if he really is that calm at all? I'm very unsure about bringing in another trainer. The one we brought in was a positive reinforcing trainer that came highly recommended but I don't want to make anything worse. He's come such a long way already. I feel like it's my fault too. It must be, I mean I should be able to think these problems through but I'm stumped.

Oh also, his daily routine starts at about 6.30am he goes out with hubby after he's had his breakfast and laid down for a bit. Then he stays asleep, snoring till about 11.30am then he has a second walk with me at lunch. Sometimes it falls later depending on deliveries and him, he doesn't always want to go out at the same time. In the afternoon we play in the garden with toys for about half an hour, then he'll have a kong and settle for the start of the afternoon. 3pm he has his tea. Then he has a game of find it and a kong and some training. This all depends on his attention sometimes he just has his tea and goes to bed! Then he goes for a walk with hubby or both of us at about 7pm. In the evening he has a second kong or a chew stick and then he takes himself up to bed between 8-9pm. He literally takes himself to bed, sometimes he asks for a tuck in. He barks so we go to bed and then he settles. He's our funny onion! Obviously when hubby is home and we have the time we take him places like the park or the canal. On those days he ends up sleeping more and not needing training because he's pooped!

Any help would be most gratefully received! Thanks for reading my novella!
JudyN
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by JudyN »

Thank you for the long detailed post! I'm not an expert, and I don't have time to get my thoughts in order right now but I just wanted to start saying that you mustn't blame yourself or feel like a failure - you've done so well with him, and the issues he still has aren't simple fixes.

Just one thought to start you off - my dog got reactive to the doorbell after we had decorators in for a fortnight. One thing I did was to get all the family members to ring the bell when coming in, so it became the norm (I should work on knocking too because though he's fine with the doorbell he still reacts if someone decided to knock instead :lol: ). That won't solve the whole issue for you as you still have the problem with people he doesn't know coming in, but it might at least take away the initial 'scary' trigger.

I'll be back later....
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
DianeLDL
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by DianeLDL »

Hi Yorkshire lass,

First, thanks for the detail. As Judy & others would say, more detail, the better.

Ironically, we have encouraged our deer chihuahua (long legs, & bigger than usual one) to bark when people come to the door, whether doorbell or knock, but he les us know even before anyone has gen tried to TNT or knock. We live in an area where we get solicitors, so we reward him for that. It's a problem on hotels, though, & everyone can attest that we travel a lot. In hotels, I usually put dirty towels & garbage outside the door & tell the maids not to knock.

And, wheneople come in like repair people, we usually have to put him in his crate.

It does get annoying when he hears the FedEx or UPS truck even if we aren't getting anything. But he doesn't get rewarded unless we actually open the door.

But, like Bear, Sandy gets very protective of me. I'm short & walk with a cane & once I fell at a rest stop. When I fall, Sandy stands on top of me & barks. It go my husband's attention, but two young men wanted to help me up. But we thanked& told them to go away. We were afraid f be touched me,, Sandy would become too protective & bite them. He even jealous if my husband (who has bladder cancer) even touches my hand. So, can imagine how he would be with a stranger.

As JudyN said someone else will be better able to help.
Diane
Sandy, Chihuahua mix b. 12/20/09
JudyN
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by JudyN »

OK,thinking some more. But as I said I'm not an expert so these are just some ideas to think about.
I tried doing the exercise where you teach them to stay in one place when there's a knock at the door. Bear is too bright for that. He is perfect, laid down and lets a person knock and does not react. He'll even stay where he is when you open the door. As soon as he knows it is someone he is familiar with he just doesn't react. Problem solved! Nope not one bit! And we've exhausted the neighbours willing to play door knocker!
So he's OK once you open the door and he sees it's someone you know? At what point does he start barking/growling (if you don't say anything)? When they knock, when you go to the door, when you open the door?

Ideally, you start from a point at which he's comfortable, or at least not too anxious, and not put him in a situation where he is stressed. This might mean not having anyone come into your house for a while, and having a parcel safe box installed so you don't need to open the door to delivery people. Then you get people to knock on the door and go away again. When he hears a knock, he gets a treat somewhere away from the door.

I would establish a safe, comfy area for him behind a door (or stairgate), and teaching him that when there's a knock on the door, he gets a treat in that safe place. You can even pop out and knock on the door yourself. What you're aiming for is for him to go to that room as soon as he hears the door, then you can close the door on him.

Once that's established, you go to the door, open it and close it again (the knocker having gone away again). Then you open it, say 'hello', and close it again. Then you can gradually reintroduce other people into the equation.

It's obviously not an easy, practical thing to train, but that's the way I'd address it.
On a less urgent track we also have an issue, again in the house. Both me and my husband have chronic medical conditions, both under control for the most part. I have type 1 diabetes and my husband has asthma. Now in the odd occasion we need help we've had an issue with Bear taking offence and getting between us. Growling and springing at the person trying to help. He's never bitten, just made it known he feels that the helper is threatening the person needing help. Do we pretend we need help and counter condition his behaviour? So far getting him to sit works 40% of the time but when he's in an aroused state he just isn't focused enough.


Yes, I'd pretend to need help, because you can then keep it calm to start with, as if it's all normal, and build up. But I wonder if you could ever replicate the anxiety levels in a real-life situation, particularly if you needed help from someone Bear didn't know. So I think I'd use the same 'safe' place again, so you can easily get him to go there and the door/stairgate can be shut.

I love that he asks to be tucked in at bedtime :lol:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
YorkshireLass
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by YorkshireLass »

Thank you Judy for your reply! Oh dear, I don't think I was very clear!

Basically during training he is perfect. He does not react to the knock at the door at all or the door being opened or the person coming in. It's when it's a delivery involving someone he does not know and we cannot train for that because it's a delivery guy wanting to come and go. People who don't even enter our house. This is why training is so difficult. Once he knows someone well enough, I am assuming from smell, he does not react to a knock at the door. Even when we started this process he immediately knew it was one of us knocking. That seems like he has no issue but then you get a delivery person knocking and he goes completely mental! Short of inviting every single possible delivery person into our home I don't know what to do. During training he behaves impeccably.

I know the simple answer may seem like installing a delivery box or something but we're going to have people knocking at the door regardless. We get door-to-door salesmen all the time. We get charity people coming all the time. We even have kids knocking on the door all the time. So poor Bear is looping out. But as I say when we do any type of door training he seems to know it's training. I've tried getting him into another room but by that point he's already aroused and the damage is done to the person knocking at the door because they can hear him going ballistic.

Oh gosh this is impossible isn't it?
JudyN
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by JudyN »

They seem to be psychic sometimes, don't they? My dog once started barking when a visitor he hadn't met before came round.... before he'd even got out of the car on the other side of the road! I've never worked that one out.

One of these signs might help in reducing the number of calls: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stop-Cold-Call ... B01H2SIHO8 Then if you could get a delivery box that would reduce the incidents even more. And even if this only seems to be 'managing' the problem rather than dealing with them, it will help as each time he does this it will be increasing his anxiety and reinforcing the behaviour. With fewer incidents, he then might be calm enough in general for you to work on 'when someone knocks go to your bed' with enough success that it eventually works even when he is worked up. And you can then shut the door on him so even if he does bark, you'll be more relaxed, which will communicate to him. Bear in mind that some of his reaction might be because he senses your anxiety about his reaction. He's likely to assume that your anxiety is because of the 'strange person' coming to the house.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
YorkshireLass
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by YorkshireLass »

I'll be honest, I think dogs are far more intelligent than we give them credit. That's sometimes a blessing and sometimes a curse though! Bear is super sensitive, I am certain he reads body language way quicker than we do of our own kind. He assesses threat in the blink of an eye. I think that's a trait of strays, our previous boy Kaiser was just the same. We used bond-based training with Bear and continue to use it with clicker training too.

To some degree he's only doing what he's meant to do. I totally acknowledge that a lot of the things we dislike are just dogs being dogs and most of the time I accept it, distract him from it to something more fun. But the door is something that you cannot really ignore.

I think everything you've said should help. I'm wondering. Do you think having music on in the house as much as possible would help him? The reason I ask is that he can be barky to even sounds outside, you notice an increase when it's hot and you have windows open. I think that might be an added plan. Also our door does need replacing, the one we have at the moment is almost half windowed. I'm contemplating a more filled in one?

I'm 100% sure he reacts to high energy. Well you rush to a door knock because these days delivery people almost run off! So he's fed by that and the anxiety about him losing it. Yes, I think we need a Plan B and this is a great start! Thank you so much Judy!
YorkshireLass
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by YorkshireLass »

DianeLDL wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:21 am Hi Yorkshire lass,

First, thanks for the detail. As Judy & others would say, more detail, the better.

Ironically, we have encouraged our deer chihuahua (long legs, & bigger than usual one) to bark when people come to the door, whether doorbell or knock, but he les us know even before anyone has gen tried to TNT or knock. We live in an area where we get solicitors, so we reward him for that. It's a problem on hotels, though, & everyone can attest that we travel a lot. In hotels, I usually put dirty towels & garbage outside the door & tell the maids not to knock.

And, wheneople come in like repair people, we usually have to put him in his crate.

It does get annoying when he hears the FedEx or UPS truck even if we aren't getting anything. But he doesn't get rewarded unless we actually open the door.

But, like Bear, Sandy gets very protective of me. I'm short & walk with a cane & once I fell at a rest stop. When I fall, Sandy stands on top of me & barks. It go my husband's attention, but two young men wanted to help me up. But we thanked& told them to go away. We were afraid f be touched me,, Sandy would become too protective & bite them. He even jealous if my husband (who has bladder cancer) even touches my hand. So, can imagine how he would be with a stranger.

As JudyN said someone else will be better able to help.
Diane
HimDiane,

Aww Sandy sounds very protective of you! In some ways it's not a bad thing is it? I mean I like having a dog around with me during the day. I would be alone in the house and when we lost our Kaiser last year I was totally bereft. The house was super quiet and I just kept hearing noises!

I think dogs generally are trying their best to do what they think is right. Unfortunately if like our rescue Bear, they've been taught to go mental with play or haven't had the best training they go to extremes in trying to achieve it!

In a way they're protecting their own and I can see how that could become a problem!

We'll keep working on it, I think all dogs are bright sparks just waiting for the right education from us. It's just sometimes we're a bit slow on the uptake huh?!!

Thanks for replying, I'm sorry I did not,say hi sooner, missed your post for some reason!
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Nettle
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by Nettle »

The others have already given great advice, and I really am impressed by all you have done to help your dog, and to understand that he is just being a dog - doing those things that people have domesticated dogs for in the first place. Guarding the home against strangers, guarding his vulnerable people - yes, he knows you are both unwell - against attack from strangers. So I haven't much to add, except to reiterate -

That secure parcel box will save a lot of issues, as will the notice on the gate. It is unreasonable to expect a dog to accept strangers coming to the home when his breeding on one side is to guard. Cold callers do not have to be accommodated. Get friends to phone in advance before they come to the door, deliveries are catered for, strangers don't matter. If they ignore the signs and still come to the door, ignore them but treat your dog so that he associated door knock = go to your place and get treats. Yes there are dogs that happily welcome strangers into the home, but not this dog. Go with the art of the possible.


Training, no matter how good the dog and trainer, is never 100%. Management is. Take the pressure off all of you and manage those things you mention. You and the dog are not failures or bad in any way, but a dog is always a dog and will behave like a dog. People can change their modus operandi but the dog cannot change his DNA.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
JudyN
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by JudyN »

YorkshireLass wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:02 amI'm 100% sure he reacts to high energy. Well you rush to a door knock because these days delivery people almost run off!
I don't! If I jump up to answer the door I know Jasper will react, and his approach is to threaten me to stop me letting the 'bad person' into the house. If they just ring the doorbell I get up calmly and he's fine. If they knock on the door I can firmly tell him to stay put but I still have to move slowly. On the whole delivery people tend to leave parcels in our porch if no one answers so it's not a problem. Reactive dogs can help you learn a very Zen-like approach to life :lol:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
YorkshireLass
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by YorkshireLass »

JudyN wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:03 am
YorkshireLass wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:02 amI'm 100% sure he reacts to high energy. Well you rush to a door knock because these days delivery people almost run off!
I don't! If I jump up to answer the door I know Jasper will react, and his approach is to threaten me to stop me letting the 'bad person' into the house. If they just ring the doorbell I get up calmly and he's fine. If they knock on the door I can firmly tell him to stay put but I still have to move slowly. On the whole delivery people tend to leave parcels in our porch if no one answers so it's not a problem. Reactive dogs can help you learn a very Zen-like approach to life :lol:
This is true! Maybe I need to take the hint?!

Bear has certainly made us zen-like in our marriage we rarely argue because he hates it! That said sometimes you just need to let off steam!

I actually, and this is embarrassing to mention it but on one occasion I had left the door ajar and I could hear a van, well I tried to race down the stairs to beat Bear to the door... missed the fifth step tumbled forwards into the front door, smacked my face against the window and back onto the bottom step. Leapt up straight away in agony to open the door and take delivery. The driver must have wondered what had happened when I smacked my face against the pane! As I type I'm laughing hard about it but boy did it hurt! I don't rush that much anymore!
YorkshireLass
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by YorkshireLass »

Nettle wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:20 am The others have already given great advice, and I really am impressed by all you have done to help your dog, and to understand that he is just being a dog - doing those things that people have domesticated dogs for in the first place. Guarding the home against strangers, guarding his vulnerable people - yes, he knows you are both unwell - against attack from strangers. So I haven't much to add, except to reiterate -

That secure parcel box will save a lot of issues, as will the notice on the gate. It is unreasonable to expect a dog to accept strangers coming to the home when his breeding on one side is to guard. Cold callers do not have to be accommodated. Get friends to phone in advance before they come to the door, deliveries are catered for, strangers don't matter. If they ignore the signs and still come to the door, ignore them but treat your dog so that he associated door knock = go to your place and get treats. Yes there are dogs that happily welcome strangers into the home, but not this dog. Go with the art of the possible.


Training, no matter how good the dog and trainer, is never 100%. Management is. Take the pressure off all of you and manage those things you mention. You and the dog are not failures or bad in any way, but a dog is always a dog and will behave like a dog. People can change their modus operandi but the dog cannot change his DNA.
Thank you for the advice Nettle! You are right, he's just doing what he's meant to do and we're getting in the way!

Thank you too for acknowledging what we have done. I keep trying to remember what he was like, we've come a long way with him and he's a different dog really but when he's so good it's like the problems you still have seem like great sores! But I think we'll give some other ideas a good go. I think Bear has bonded to me especially and he can't be faulted for his loyalty and affection. I've never had a dog that cuddles so much.

That first month, there were moments where I really wondered what had happened to him. He'd have nightmares, jump off the sofa then climb into my lap and get as close as possible. If he could have gotten inside me I think he would. He curled up like that for a good half an hour. Thankfully he's not done that again recently but when he did it I just let him get what he needed.
JudyN
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by JudyN »

YorkshireLass wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:02 amI actually, and this is embarrassing to mention it but on one occasion I had left the door ajar and I could hear a van, well I tried to race down the stairs to beat Bear to the door... missed the fifth step tumbled forwards into the front door, smacked my face against the window and back onto the bottom step. Leapt up straight away in agony to open the door and take delivery. The driver must have wondered what had happened when I smacked my face against the pane! As I type I'm laughing hard about it but boy did it hurt! I don't rush that much anymore!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Bear is a lucky boy to have landed with you :D
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Ari_RR
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by Ari_RR »

:-)
My 2 cents - barking at the strangers entering or at the door is not really all that horrible.

Our (rather large and mean looking) boy too greets delivery folks and others by putting "I am a big and scary dog" show on. The way we handle is to minimize the drama, and get those folks inside quickly. Once they are inside - he will sniff them, most likely find them quite boring, and return to the couch.

Some of them actually enjoy the big dog.

The trouble is with visitors who are afraid of dogs. But they will have a hard time anyway. He sense people's discomfort and gets a lot of enjoyment from following them around, staring at them. But that's a different topic, I guess. As far as barking at the door - the quicker the entrance, the less dramatic it is.

And yeah - you are doing fine! Don't overthink this , really not such a big deal.
YorkshireLass
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Re: Front Door & Other Issues

Post by YorkshireLass »

Ari_RR wrote: Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:04 pm :-)
My 2 cents - barking at the strangers entering or at the door is not really all that horrible.

Our (rather large and mean looking) boy too greets delivery folks and others by putting "I am a big and scary dog" show on. The way we handle is to minimize the drama, and get those folks inside quickly. Once they are inside - he will sniff them, most likely find them quite boring, and return to the couch.

Some of them actually enjoy the big dog.

The trouble is with visitors who are afraid of dogs. But they will have a hard time anyway. He sense people's discomfort and gets a lot of enjoyment from following them around, staring at them. But that's a different topic, I guess. As far as barking at the door - the quicker the entrance, the less dramatic it is.

And yeah - you are doing fine! Don't overthink this , really not such a big deal.
Aww thank you! I totally get that what he's doing is a good thing, I mean Kaiser who was half Bear's size again intimidated people even though he was soft as marshmallows! But it really is that we are getting an issue with our postman indicating he doesn't want to deliver to us. It didn't help because when Bear was reactive he made the postie jump by barking and lunging at him!

Guests coming in get super waggy tail and soppy whining but we get round it by slipping them a meet and greet rice bone to give him and he then thinks that person is great!

Your boy looks very like Bear! I'll have to get a pic up so you can see. I adore big dogs, always have. Kaiser was a mastiff/Akita cross, we used to call him a cut and shut dog because his head looked like a mastiff and his tail was all Akita. He had a weird habit that in the garden sometimes he would grab your knee and try to take you somewhere. We'd had an Akita before so we knew they had this tendency but it was still a bit disturbing when your knee was grabbed firmly by his huge jaws!
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