Incident with Pitmix and 2yr old son - HELP!

[pitmixmama]

I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I just wanted to be as thorough as possible. May cross-post on another board as well.

Background: We adopted our Pit/Dalmatian mix (Pearl) from a rescue group about 5yrs ago, making her approximately 6yrs old. She started out friendly with all dogs and humans, but has become dog aggressive with most dogs outside our home. She and her Pit/Greyhound sister are besties though, and have never had issues. She and I have always had a bit of a power struggle, though she completely respects my husband as a pack leader type. Our son was born just over 2yrs ago (recently diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder), and we swore we'd never allow an opportunity one of the dogs to make a mistake with him. We refuse to perpetuate the bad rap that Pits get. The girls have always been a little leery of him, and almost seem to sense his importance and get nervous that they'll make a "mistake". We don't allow them to be openly mixed without very close supervision (we are always within arms reach and/or in between him and the dogs). Until yesterday.

Yesterday my son and I were playing outside with the dogs and throwing the balls for them. I relaxed too much. My son was standing next to Pearl, and she was aware of his presence. He suddenly gave her a sweet hug (not leaning on her, or pinching or squeezing or pulling), and she snapped very suddenly. It came with a vicious growl. Her mouth touched his hair (wet with slobber), but her teeth didn't land. He immediately burst into hysterical tears and I told Pearl "NO NO NO" and sent her away from us. I consoled my son and all was right with the world again. Except...we always said if it happened just ONE time, that would be it. We wouldn't risk an accident in our house. Now that it's happened, we're totally torn.

The dogs were our first babies. The thought of sending one or both away seems so sad and unfair. We're discussing the idea of getting professional help to get us started in the right direction (ongoing is out of budget). This is very fresh and I'm having a hard time. Right now I don't trust her. I feel bad, but I don't forgive her yet. I feel like I'll be waiting for the next time...the big regret, you know? How realistic is it for us to keep them separated like this? As mentioned, my son has ASD and is only 2yrs old. Like most 2yr olds, he has to be told things over and over again...times ten. I don't know that I could get him to understand that hugging the dogs isn't ok.

I'm totally at a loss. What do we do?

[gwd]

let me just apologize in advance for my terse reply. i'm typing with a finger that was recently dislocated and it hurts to type......so please don't take the brevity as me being dismissive or flippant.

i'm sure it was very frightening.........and fear causes us to do things that might be wrong.......which unfortunately you've done. I know it was your instinct to reprimand the dog but you don't want her to think that growls are something that gets her in trouble. growls are the main way (unless they've been reprimanded) that dogs make something go away or stop. .......if you take the growl warning away, the dog can then escalate straight to biting.

your dog did exhibit bite control. she gave a warning snap and a growl.........if she'd been intent on damage she easily could have. you called it a sweet hug. to a dog, NO hug from a toddler is appreciated or 'sweet'. most don't even appreciate it from adults. it's a very, VERY rare dog that views being wrapped up as pleasurable. at times they are better at tolerating it but at times of high arousal (a great ball game, food time) their impulse control is lower.

ok, I have NO experience with autism so I can't fully appreciate the additional challenges you face but I strongly dismiss the, 'Like most 2yr olds, he has to be told things over and over again...times ten. I don't know that I could get him to understand that hugging the dogs isn't ok.' position. it's not just you I've heard it before. people that claim they just can't stop their toddler from hugging or climbing on the family dog. horse hockey! if you have a fireplace you don't say, 'I just can't seem to keep the baby out of the fire'. trust me on this, I also raised a son and the dogs were off limits. no if ands or buts. he was NOT allowed to mess with the dogs, ever. period. obviously when he got older the rules changed but toddlers and dogs are NOT a good combo. only you can answer the question of if you can impress on your son that the dogs are 100% off limits for him to touch, just as if they were a hot stove.

now, one other thing that i'd be remiss if I didn't mention............i'm just a tad concerned that some of the wording you used sounds a bit Milan-esqe. if you view this as a pack situation/power struggle/hubby as pack leader......then I think you're going to have trouble down the road. you can't impose your will and dominate her out of not wanting your son to hug her.

i'm sure others will be along shortly........my finger is hurting again so i'll just close by saying it can work, but only you can decide if it can work for your specific situation.

[lucyandbella]

people that claim they just can't stop their toddler from hugging or climbing on the family dog. horse hockey! if you have a fireplace you don't say, 'I just can't seem to keep the baby out of the fire'. trust me on this, I also raised a son and the dogs were off limits. no if ands or buts. he was NOT allowed to mess with the dogs, ever. period. obviously when he got older the rules changed but toddlers and dogs are NOT a good combo. only you can answer the question of if you can impress on your son that the dogs are 100% off limits for him to touch, just as if they were a hot stove.

I 100 percent agree with this. Here are blog entries by a trainer who works specifically with dogs and children that address this very idea. This one talks about the idea of not letting your child be "magnetized" to dogs: http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/20 ... d-to-dogs/. And this one talks about toddlers specifically:http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/20 ... gs-part-3/. Her blog is great and her other entries would all be good to read through too.

[pitmixmama]

Thank you for the replies...and sorry for your finger!

I can appreciate that the hug was poorly timed. That makes complete sense. She IS a dog that loves being hugged and physically close. She's a lover that likes to physically smother us and be smashed against us and be hugged and kissed on. It may just be that she's uncomfortable with him and/or it was just bad timing.

I can't speak for neurotypical children at this age, because I don't have one. I do know that toddlers have to be told things over and over again. I do know that my child isn't neurotypical, and it isn't a comparable situation. Obviously we want everyone in our house to feel safe at all times. I don't know if she felt safe in that moment or the reason for her response. I'm not sure if keeping them completely separated is something that will work as my son gets older, and I don't know that I can get him to fully understand the seriousness of the situation, or when I might be able to. Not due to lack of trying, but because the communication and understanding are simply different in our scenario. As an example you mentioned the fireplace. In our house, we'd have to block access to the fire. I don't know if that behavior is permanent at this point. There's a lot of guessing with autism and the future.

As far as the Milan-esque reference to pack leader...I guess the point of my mentioning that is that she just doesn't seem to respect me. When I give commands, she looks to him. She'll eventually listen to me, but she doesn't just pop-up and follow my lead like she does his. This has been a bit of a struggle for years. I mentioned it because I don't know that she would've reacted the same if it had been my husband standing there instead of me...if that makes sense. It's not that I want to dominate her into accepting his hugs. That would be silly. I just wonder if she would've looked to my husband for guidance instead of lashing out.

Ugh...I hope this response doesn't come off as being defensive. I just want to further explain points that were brought up. I truly appreciate any response and will look at the links provided.

[pitmixmama]

OMG...I just read the links. Our son is completely magnetized to dogs! We're total dog people, so we're constantly pointing out dogs and saying hi to dogs. We do ALWAYS ask first if it's ok to say hi to a dog and we never let him run up to strange dogs (or our own for that matter...this was a fluke, my mistake). We have big talks about it. These are not new concepts, but it's like he's never heard it before every single time we see a dog. The articles basically promote keeping the dogs separated, in addition to toddler training. It's exhausting and I'm human, and I also have weird guilt for keeping the dogs separated from us all the time.

[gwd]

Ugh...I hope this response doesn't come off as being defensive.

of course not. you're a worried mom and you're trying your best to fully explain the situation with your son and your dogs. what might seem a no-brainer, 'why doesn't she just do (insert solution), problem solved' might very well have some damn good reasons why it doesn't apply to your dog, your son, or your situation. .......all of the details (and they are details, not excuses) help folks here refine their mental picture of your unique situation.

it would be arrogant of me to assume that i fully grasp how your son's challenges change the game.......which is exactly why i mentioned that i have ZERO experience with autism and i also realize there are different levels that all fall under the same label. ........the challenges that you face with your son are different even with other autistic children. i guess that's why they refer to it as 'spectrum'.

[Nettle]

I too am typing with a fracture, so take it as you are very much in my thoughts and please don't mistake brevity for rudeness.

Autism and other human emotional/mental disturbance frightens the hell out of dogs. I hope that helps you understand from your dog's point of view. This won't change.

[JudyN]

I'm not an expert, but my thoughts...

I think this is such a difficult situation I honestly don't think you can expect a 2-year-old with ASD never to hug Pearl under any circumstances (we have fire guards for a reason )

Pearl did show a lot of control - if she wanted to hurt your son she would have done. It may be that she would never, ever dream of doing anything more. We could suggest ways of you working with her to make her listen to you more (I don't think of it as respect, as such - it's more a case of convincing the dog that doing what you ask is a great idea, and always rewarding, so it becomes a habit). But I don't know if that would make a difference to how she would react if your son hugged her again in future.

For those reasons I don't think anyone can say that you should definitely keep Pearl - that has to be your decision. But there is always some risk with dogs and children. I know a child who was bitten on the face recently by a dog who had never shown any aggression before - it turned out that the dog had a tooth abcess.

But I'd definitely think hard about if/how you can manage Pearl and your son. It doesn't mean you have to keep her separated from all of you the whole time (and there's nothing weird with feeling guilty about that!), just that assessing and managing the situation has to become second nature, in the same way parents with toddlers never leave hot coffee on a low table. You can get freestanding room dividers that are easily moved from place to place, and this might be a useful management tool.

Just a thought, but some children on the AS can be quite rule bound, and if this applies to yours, I'm wondering if there's any way of introducing rules around dogs which he might take on better than a NT child would. Might work if he's Asperger's, less likely if he's more ADHD!

ETA: Nettle, would that be the case with a dog living with a child with autism since the birth of the child, as well as dogs who are used to NT children and noticing that a child with autism is different from all the children he met before?

[Nettle]

Nettle, would that be the case with a dog living with a child with autism since the birth of the child, as well as dogs who are used to NT children and noticing that a child with autism is different from all the children he met before

Yes. There are many different faces to autism and all of us are individuals, so a few dogs form kindly relationships with autistic people and this encourages others to think that all dogs will 'care' for a human whose needs are different (not saying this is OP's stance at all but it is common in many human circles to think that dogs are so loving they will love someone who needs extra love automatically).

This does not just apply to autism. Dogs like their people to be confident and capable because then they feel safe. Any variety of permanent human emotional turbulence, including senility, is frightening to most dogs.

I do know an extremely severely damaged person who cannot connect to people at all, and one dog in his family chooses to comfort and interact with him - but the other family dogs stay clear. This same dog goes to the day centre to collect him and greets many of the others but not all of them. She too has her limits. Clearly some forms of autism are 'safe' to her, but not others.

I do feel for you, OP.

[DianeLDL]

This is a really an interesting situation.

I know that some types of dogs such as retrievers or labs are trained specifically to be therapy or assistance dogs and deal well with people with disabilities. I know someone who is now an adult with autism as well as deafness who has a specially trained assistance dog who not only accepts comfort but also can open and close drawers, fetch items, etc. Recently this friend was hospitalized for seizures and her dog stayed at her bedside in the hospital and helped her out of her coma.

But, as I said, not all dogs are able to be trained to be accepting and become not only assistance but also therapy dogs. Another dear friend who adopted a black lab from the shelter was able to use her as a therapy dog as the dog's personality was perfect of the job. She regularly visited children in the local hospital.

In this case, Pearl had never been exposed to children or adults with special needs so to expect her to automatically be a special needs dog, is unlikely. Perhaps, having the dog undergo soecialized training may help. But, it depends on the personality of the dog.

I know that Paws for Vets organization does take dogs from the shelters and trains them specifically to help veterans deal with PTSD and other problems. But, as I said, the dogs undergo very long and special training in order to do this. Even pitbull mixes have been successfully trained, but it takes time and money to get them in that way. And in the end, these pitbull mixes can be extremely protective if their owners.

I do know that many children aren't able to deal properly with dogs. Even Victoria did a piece on how there have been more incidents with dogs and children due to the fact that parents don't teach the children and the dogs. A normal two year old will often get defiant and do the opposite of what they are told. I know that autistic children are less likely to listen and pay attention.

I see that there has been some good advice given here. Have you contacted anyone in autism organization to ask about this situation? There may be others who understand autistic children, especially toddlers, who have been through a similar situation.

Good luck with this.
Diane

[pitmixmama]

Thank you so much for the responses. I'll try my best to acknowledge all in the brief moment I have alone at the computer! I apologize in advance if I miss anything, and sorry to hear about another injured finger.

First, I can't believe it didn't occur to me to ask my online autism community this same question. I'm new to the game and it seems so obvious to cross this question over to them as well. I feel like here will be a dog's perspective and there will be an ASD child's perspective. lol Thank you!

Now that it's been mentioned that dogs can be frightened by emotional/mental disturbances, I wonder if they knew before we did. We always took their steering clear of him as a bit of a nervousness, but in a different way. We saw it as them just intuitively understanding his importance and being nervous to make a mistake with him. Maybe they're just scared as hell of him and simply don't want to be around him. They have both come up to him on several occasions for kisses, but this has been over a 2yr period. It's very rare, and on those occasions we were literally in between them for the most part. Maybe they feel comfort in an extremely controlled situation.

We do have a dog/cat/baby gate in place. Unfortunately, our son is exceptionally clever and has had it figured out for quite some time. Most of my adult friends can't operate the thing. He really can't be "contained". We have a spare room that we refer to as the dogs' room. Their beds and water are in there and when our son is awake, the dogs are in their room or outside...unless of course we can be FULLY available to monitor, which means we can't so much as look at the tv or pick up a phone, etc. Our son is unable to open the door on his own, so this is their "safe" place. Unfortunately, it's not their safe place to go to, it's our safe place that we put them. Does that make sense? They don't have a choice, which I think makes a difference.

I do think that you're all right, in that Pearl exhibited a lot of control. I didn't see it in the moment. In the moment I saw her narrowly missing his scalp and I reacted in Mama Bear fashion. I don't want her to think she can't warn appropriately, but it was just too close for my own level of comfort. They haven't been allowed in the same room as him since the incident. In discussing training, my husband has stated that he isn't comfortable with me doing it without him. Which I completely understand and am fine not taking the lead on. I'm still feeling very anxious about it, which isn't going to help our situation at all.

Aaaand...time is up!

[pitmixmama]

Oh wait, before I forget... My son is extremely hyper. It's quite possible that he will later be diagnosed ADHD on top of the ASD. His impulse control is lacking, to say the least. We do witness him using it at times, but it's definitely noteworthy when he does. We are on constant repeat and trying new ways to communicate important topics with him...or any topics, for that matter. This actually describes Pearl quite perfectly as well. lol No joke, this dog is 6yrs old and still acts the same as the day we adopted her at 1yr. She'll jump 4ft in the air and flip in circles from a sitting position (She's already had a 5k surgery to correct her torn doggy ACL), and literally vibrates with anticipation over treats or cats or dogs or squirrels or...f*ng anything, IF she even maintains her impulse control. How weird to suddenly realize she and my son are practically identical.

[Fundog]

One more thing to add, bearing in mind that this forum's basic philosophy is primarily centered around a dog's point of view. Understanding the dog's point of view is often a key factor in resolving behavior problems and misunderstandings between humans and dogs.

That being said... It is not really the dog you need to forgive so much as it is yourself for making a very human mistake. The dog was not wrong, and does not need scolding. Nobody needs scolding. The dog was merely communicating like a dog, and has been pointed out, did indeed use strong bite inhibition. Believe me when I tell you she did not "miss." She stopped short. If she had meant to bite him for real, she would have done so. She was a good dog. It is time to forgive yourself, bring the dog back into your loving graces again, and move on. Learn from this, and move forward. It is not the end of the world. You're a good, attentive mother, and very strong for the challenges you must face in having a special needs child. You will be okay.

[JudyN]

In discussing training, my husband has stated that he isn't comfortable with me doing it without him. Which I completely understand and am fine not taking the lead on. I'm still feeling very anxious about it, which isn't going to help our situation at all.

I'm not sure what training you have in mind here? Positive training is very safe, because you are always working within the dog's comfort zone. Are you thinking of general training to get Pearl to be more responsive to you, or training specifically with your son? You absolutely cannot train this by trying to give her the message 'You must not growl/bite/snap at my son.' The only way to approach it would be to change her underlying emotions so she feels no stress when your son is around (which will be difficult with an unpredictable child).

It's also worth thinking about your dogs' mental states generally. Do you now think they might be generally uncomfortable whenever your son is around? And how do they feel about being shut in their room (I'm not sure how long this is for)? If they have sufficient attention/walks/training/play the rest of the time they may be perfectly happy with the arrangement.

I get the impression you're already doing a fantastic job of managing your dogs and your son. Given the control Pearl showed, it's quite possible that she will never, ever harm your son. But if he should poke her in the eye, jump up and down on her tail, pull her fur... I can't say. But that's true for any child and any dog.

[emmabeth]

If he isn't already, I think your husband should come read this thread.

Positive, force free training is the safest method of training going, and on top of that because we are advising on that which we cannot see, via the internet, we are all HYPER aware we need to be safe FIRST... everything else comes second.

So no advice will be given here that puts you or your son at risk.

I actually wanted to say, if you look at all the things ASD's bring, issues with self control, issues with eye contact, issues with physical contact, issues with context ..... you WILL see there are HUGE similarities with dogs - please don't think for one second I am comparing in a bad way here, but in understanding ASD's, you might well find you actually understand more about your dog than you realised!

I think actually reading your last post, you have already got that!

Whilst safety obviously does come first, life without ANY form of risk is no life at all - your dog has actually shown she has very good bite inhibition and restraint in a fairly high-energy situation - and of course you are now armed with the knowledge that she might not like some of the things your son could do. That puts you several steps ahead already, so don't feel bad for looking for a way to resolve this situation without getting rid of your dog!