I'm done

Share your favorite training tips, ideas and methods with other Positively members!

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

Post Reply
User avatar
Shalista
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

I'm done

Post by Shalista » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:10 pm

so today i discovered that bax has started pottying in the house. after 1 month of him crossing his blessed little legs he's now cheerily weeing in the bed room whenever he pleases.

hes still barking, growling and whining at absolutely everything.

he doesnt liek to be pet

he doesnt like treats

he doesnt liek toys

he never settles

I'm litterally sitting here counting down the days till he dies of old age. i've spent 4 years trying to get SOMETHING out of him and hes just a walking diaster. I'm beyond fed up with him.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13

Lotsaquestions
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:06 am

Re: I'm done

Post by Lotsaquestions » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:15 pm

Don't give up!

If Bax really struggles with going to the loo outsite, there are indoor toiletting things for dogs now that lots of people with small or elderly dogs use. Fake turf, easy to clean, and mimics grass so it doesn't take away the 'wee on grass please' training. I think its called Piddle Place, and I think you can get boards on it for the boys.

I don't know how this board feels about medication, but maybe it would help to look down this route? There is also CBD Hemp Oil that some people are saying helps dogs with noise phobias and aggression, helping them to relax. I've never tried that myself though so I can't say if it works or not.

User avatar
JudyN
Posts: 6270
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: I'm done

Post by JudyN » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:17 pm

I wish I knew of some easy answer, but if there was one you'd have found it by now because you have tried so hard :( I agree with LoQ that an indoor potty would make sense. And the sooner you introduce it, the better before he gets too used to going wherever he wants.

I'd also definitely look into medication. Of course it's better to manage without, but there are plenty of people who absolutely need medication for anxiety, depression and so on and dogs are going to be the same.

I'd also suggest looking for different places to live that might be better for him but I imagine that that's not financially possible and there might not be any quieter areas within reach of your job anyway.

Would his life be better or worse if he moved back into your parents' home? I know it's far from ideal but there isn't an ideal option.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

User avatar
Shalista
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Re: I'm done

Post by Shalista » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:24 pm

tentatively felt out him moving home. i think my dad would love it but my mom ABHORS animals and shes already takign care of two cats she HATES from my sister.

would the paper puppy pads work better or some kind of fake grass system?

and im calling the vets tomarrow. theres a clinic near work that one of my coworkers swears by

i just... im so tired.... long ago i learned that love is a choice, that you have to choose to get up every day and do the right thing by your beloved.... but im tired.... tis been 4 years.......
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13

Lotsaquestions
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:06 am

Re: I'm done

Post by Lotsaquestions » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:24 am

Paper puppy pads will do the trick, but with the boys they like to lift their legs which can get messy with the pads :lol:

I hope the vets can help out, I've seen dogs turn a corner with a little medication which gives them the kick start they need to start learning things aren't scary. Like Judy said, some people need a little help at times too!

User avatar
Shalista
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Re: I'm done

Post by Shalista » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:41 am

i got this dog because *I* needed help because i was crazy >.< never expected my pooch to be so like me :cry:

(although thx for reminding me. Bax isn't ALL take, he gave me alot of help before i found meds that worked properly :D )
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13

User avatar
Shalista
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Re: I'm done

Post by Shalista » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:21 am

he is officially WORSE with food he likes. he now runs back and forth from the baby gate at the stairs to me and again barking and whining at both ends.... continuously. only now he also stress snuffles and sneezes. usually i could get him to settle at least a lil in the morning. not so anymore! if i dont immediately give him a treat when he comes back to me he barks at me. if i ignore him he wanders the room whining before returning to me like some kind of homing sausage with legs.

hes always been exceptionally good at finding a behavior that earned him treats and then pressing repeat until i wanted to shoot myself. apparently he's done it again. run to baby gate + bark + run to mom = treats. YAY! :evil: :cry: :(
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13

User avatar
Suzette
Posts: 1492
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:45 am
Location: Upstate SC

Re: I'm done

Post by Suzette » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:27 pm

I can hear and feel your frustration Shalista! I really sympathize with you. You have tried so hard with your little guy.

My daughter has a slightly similar situation to yours with her rescue dog. After working with him lovingly and patiently for over three years (and not getting very far) she finally took the step to put her dog on fluoxetine (prozac). It has made a significant difference in him and his behavior. It won't be right for every dog or every owner, but she is honestly wishing she had done it much sooner for both their sakes. I truly hope you find something that works to help with your situation. Wishing you and Bax all the best!
My avatar is Piper, my sweet Pembroke Corgi. b. 5/11/11

jacksdad
Posts: 4807
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: I'm done

Post by jacksdad » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:38 pm

Shalista,

I am sorry you have hit this point with Bax. It happens. you are not a horrible person for feeling at your wits end. It is OK be frustrated and to express that frustration. It is actually good to.

I feel bad that having been away from the board as much as I have that I have lost track of all of Bax's issues so I don't have anything to offer right now. And don't feel the need to catch me up in this thread either. if you want, there is time for that later.

However, reading the comments IF Bax is sound sensitive, that is an issue that tends to get worse not better if not treated medically in addition to any train plan. In addition to any sound sensitivity/anxiety if Bax has anxiety triggered by things other as well, it might be time to talk with your vet about something like prozac for him. By it's self it's not a "cure", but medication added to an appropriate training plan can make all the difference in the world. done right prozac (or other anti anxiety meds determined by your vet to be more appropriate) does not negatively affect your dog. Just looking at a dog with a correct medication and dose you should not be able to tell they are on medication for anxiety. I do have experience working with dogs on prozac and it can make the difference between success and things getting worse. It would be up to your vet to determine if or what medication to use, however do avoid ACE. This comes strait from the Vet (Dr Overall) who was involved in writing the manual for using medication to treat behavior issues.

If you choose to explore this route, ask tons of questions, make sure your vet is up to speed and have a companion training plan. medication by it's self is NOT enough. there MUST be a training plan to accompany it.

Please stay away from things like CBD Hemp Oil. My vet and I were talking about seizures in dogs and CBD Hemp Oil came up as something being looked into as treatment possibility. They have run into a issue with how dogs absorb it. the take away... it's not ready for "prime time". and if you are in the US no matter what the State laws may say, it is still technically illegal due to Federal law having precedence. A trainer I trust was telling me there was also a recent review of over the counter CBD Hemp Oil products and it was found most didn't even have any detectable or have enough CBD Hemp Oil to do anything medical.

On the bath rooming in the house. One of the things I have learned getting out in the real world of behavior mod work...sometimes you have to toss "the book" and do what is right for the dog in front of you. If you need to, it isn't the end of the world to train Bax to use pee pads or those fake grass things they sell for dogs to use indoors. if it is the difference between him being able to eliminate or not OR him doing it "all over the house" where you would rather he didn't, AND your sanity.... BY ALL MEANS train him to use pee pads. you can always transition him back to going outside at a later date.

Do your best to try and find a way to get a break, catch you breath and start fresh another day.

User avatar
Shalista
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Re: I'm done

Post by Shalista » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:03 am

thx so much everyone for your kind words! I'm def exploring medication but i just moved so im trying to find a good vet before i start asking those kinds of questions. ill keep you all posted!
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13

User avatar
Shalista
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Re: I'm done

Post by Shalista » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:29 am

just had a wretched night. went to bed at 6 as usual and bax just.... never went to sleep. he stayed up whining and barking and scratching at the door. now i KNOW my bedroom is not his preferred room. he spends ZERO time in it unless hes forced to. but he also barks if hes let out into the main living room area. (all my rooms are connected to the living room and the living room is his preferred space.)

so last night i gave up. i opened my door and out he went. but i remembered something. this is actually the SECOND time bax has had noise sensitivity. last time he mellowed right down after i locked him out of his preferred room a few times.

and thats what i did. i clipped his leash on, left my bedroom door open, and went back to bed. every time he barked last night i hurtled out of bed in my underwear, grabbed his leash, and locked him in my bed room alone for thirty seconds (same as last time).

so far im actually feeling mildly successful. he only barked three times last night and finally hopped into bed and drifted off sometime around 3am.

I'm noticing that its proving a fantastic interrupter this morning. normally hed bark, get a treat, and then hed STILL be amped up ready to go for more barking and more treats and oo boy if i go into a down i bet i get more treats. with the time out though he comes out alert? but doesn't go right back to barking. that makes me hopeful that even if it doesnt stop the barking completely it at least lets his heart rate go down a little bit between noises.

I do feel a bit on the fence about whether or not this is strictly positive training? But its worked in the past and i have to do SOMETHING.

(just mentioning that i tried giving him puzzle toys until he wouldnt eat anymore last night and i took him out on five walks and he didn't have to potty so that wasn't it either. I'm also still rewarding good choices. so if theres a thump and he coems to ME first he still gets a potatoe piece. its just if he chooses poorly and barks at the noise he gets a time out)
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13

User avatar
JudyN
Posts: 6270
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: I'm done

Post by JudyN » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:30 am

I really wouldn't worry about whether it's strictly positive or not. Sometimes you have to throw your ideals out the window, be pragmatic and do what works.

Think of it as sending a child to the naughty step several times a day. Would you get better results by ignoring the bad and rewarding the good? Possibly, but you've tried that. And being sent to the naughty step, or withholding pocket money or sweets or whatever, may not be positive but they certainly aren't abusive and the child isn't likely to suffer as a result.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

Lotsaquestions
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:06 am

Re: I'm done

Post by Lotsaquestions » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:20 am

Victoria uses time outs loads on her program, and this is her forum! I suppose its similar to turning in a circle when you teach a dog not to pull, you are withdrawing something (letting them go on with the walk) so it is technically negative, but the dog isn't going to be mentally or physically scarred.

jacksdad
Posts: 4807
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: I'm done

Post by jacksdad » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:29 pm

Shalista wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:29 am
I do feel a bit on the fence about whether or not this is strictly positive training? But its worked in the past and i have to do SOMETHING.
are you adding in something to cause pain, fear, force to affect behavior change? if you can answer no, then I would not worry about about.

There can be consequences to behavior that tell your dog this path isn't worth traveling. Time outs can be one way to do this. Withholding reinforcement is another. Training an alternate behavior is the best, but not always initially possible.

As a rule, I do NOT encourage even using time out until your dog KNOWs what they should do. BUT there is an exception to this. Bossy behavior. what you described sounds a lot like bossy behavior. If you can eliminate fear as any part of the behavior, then time out (provided you use it right and are consistent) can be the right course of action. Also with bossy behavior, it often works best to remove you from the room, not the dog. the act of getting the dog out of the room can it's self be positive reinforcement to the dog. "I barked, so the owner played with me till I was in this other room".

where if dog barks, you leave the room and dog is unable to follow, count to 10, come back, repeat as needed, the dog is MORE likely to learn barking doesn't get what they want. doing this you aren't laying a finger on the dog, you aren't harming them etc. this will work IF the dog is wanting attention. removal of the attention (negative punishment) decrease the occurrence of behavior.

that is only half the equation. you MUST be ready to reinforce a behavior the dog gives OTHER than barking or some other bossy behavior at the moment you see it. dog starts to bark, catches them self...party time. you must either train or capture an alternate behavior to what it is you don't want your dog doing or you risk some initial improvement...then back to square one.
Shalista wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:21 am
he is officially WORSE with food he likes. he now runs back and forth from the baby gate at the stairs to me and again barking and whining at both ends.... continuously. only now he also stress snuffles and sneezes. usually i could get him to settle at least a lil in the morning. not so anymore! if i dont immediately give him a treat when he comes back to me he barks at me. if i ignore him he wanders the room whining before returning to me like some kind of homing sausage with legs.

hes always been exceptionally good at finding a behavior that earned him treats and then pressing repeat until i wanted to shoot myself. apparently he's done it again. run to baby gate + bark + run to mom = treats. YAY! :evil: :cry: :(
When you are ready, if you want lets take one issue at a time and discuss what you are doing, what might be worth changing, or what you are doing right in concept but may need to make an adjustment in how you are actually going about doing it.

I have read a couple comments from you like above that suggest to me you may need some adjustment in how you are reinforcing Bax. As well as when. little adjustments can make a big difference. not reinforcing enough, at the wrong time, upping criteria too quick, not quick enough etc. all can be things that get in the way of progress.

User avatar
Shalista
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Re: I'm done

Post by Shalista » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:57 am

thanks @jacksdad for the indepth crit! hes actually improved MILES as is and i think i'm well on the path for beating this. I've made accommodations for him (namely leaving my bedroom door open if he requests it with the full knowledge that i may have to leap up to put him in time out) but im used to flying out of bed to take him on walks when potty training was more of an issue. my downstairs neighbor has told me that hes been much quieter the past couple of days so i feel like i'm on the right track!

couple of points on your comment -

I have tried removing just myself(sometimes making a huge show of me leaving). he ignores me and continues barking. he's very independent and really couldn't give a fig about me. typical terrier :roll:

Also my downstairs neighbor (the one that previously made the noise complaint) made a comment that made me realize just how tough reinforcing silence would be. apparently she heard him bark after not her, but HER NEIGHBOR closed a closet door. there's no way i could have heard that to reinforce silence. Our apartments were built in the 40s out of like solid concrete. i can barely hear my downstairs neighbor much less her neighbor.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 16 guests