Different breeds

[eddy]

Hey guys, been thinking, are some dogs UNABLE to perform certain tricks/tasks (by unable i mean NOT AT ALL) or are all dogs the same, and can/will learn the same things regardless of breed? Is it all down to training?

Thanks - Eddy

PS > For obvious things, ie. Sled pulling i know a terrier wouldnt be able to as opposed to a husky for example

[Nettle]

Good question!

Some breeds are unable to do things for physical reasons, or else find these things very difficult - for instance, dogs with long backs and long legs such as greyhounds find the 'sit' difficult, and uncomfortable if held for a long time. Dachshunds can injure their backs very easily so you would not be wise to do agility with a dachshund unless the obstacles were scaled down to allow for this. Flat-faced dogs would find tracking very difficult, and bug-eyed dogs would damage themselves if they worked thick thorn cover the way a terrier does.

Mentally this applies too - for instance some breeds are not programmed to retrieve. Most can be taught to retrieve, and there are some nasty ways of doing that, but they don't want to retrieve and get no pleasure from it. So they are not unable as in not at all, but to get them to do this, you have to use aversive methods.

[eddy]

Wow thanks for the reply, the main reason i ask is because i am planning things to do with Riley, and was wandering if things like, Frisbee, agility, and vaiour tricks were out of the question due to breed, size/stamina etc
But you're answer was great and pretty much covered all i wanted to know! NONE of the things that i want to do would ever use Aversive methods, and if something did, Riley would NOT be subjected to it.

Thanks again

Eddy (& Riley)

[emmabeth]

Yep, good question!

You can teach most dogs most things - you could get a whole herd of Lucas Terriers and harness them up and pull a sled - sure. But would they do it as single mindedly as a group of sled dogs bred for the task? Nope. Would they hurtle off after rabbits and rats and things in all different directions, probably yes. And at the heart of it they would not do it as well as dogs bred for the job would.

Some jobs would require you to start teaching the pup before it left its litter mates and mother - so again if you stuck a terrier pup in with a litter of collies and exposed them all to herding/flocking animals such as ducks, geese, sheep when they were just weeks old, the terrier would be a pretty good herding terrier..... but it would still only be good FOR a terrier. In comparison to the collies it wouldnt be very good at all.

For other things, well, I doubt any training, aversive or otherwise would turn a Deerhound into a search and rescue dog or a guide dog for the blind, or an Italian Greyhound into a Schutzhund protection dog!

However for your purposes there is no reason Riley won't do what you want him to do - as long as you teach him in a way that makes him think it was HIS idea, AND a jolly good idea to boot!

[Mattie]

Good question!

Dachshunds can injure their backs very easily so you would not be wise to do agility with a dachshund unless the obstacles were scaled down to allow for this

I wish someone would tell Dolly this, according to her it is fine for her to jump onto the counters, out of windows etc.

[Wicket]

For a related question, do different breeds have different learning styles?

[Nettle]

Oh yes. Some breeds eg collies are very task-oriented, and for them the pleasure is doing the task. Others need to have a good reason and a good reward for doing what you want. Some breeds learn some tasks faster than other breeds because they have been selectively bred to do those things, and some breeds are far more stubborn than others, because they have been created to work independently and therefore do not take direction as readily.

The actual learning process is the same for all, but some breeds are not as intelligent as others because the job they do is not improved by intelligence.

Not sure if that answered your question...........

[chay]

this is really interesting.

with regards to the relatively recent breeds ("designer" / "companion" breeds etc ) - would thier learning be more food-reward based because they no longer have specific "tasks" to do? or for them would praise/cuddles etc be classed as a task because that is what they are (now) bred to do?

e.g. gypsy, as a pomeranian - descended from larger working snow dogs but has been bred-down to simply be a little fluffy lap thing. is there any genetic heritage of working-ness left by this stage? obviously she can't pull a sled (though she would try!) but in terms of training, might they respond better to some things as a throwback to this previous incarnation?

[Nettle]

While somewhat stunned at the concept of Poms being bred-down sled dogs - I think you may find this is fantasy - toy breeds that have been bred as companions eg Pekes, papillons, etc. had several jobs - they were rat and mouse killers in the days when all households had rats and mice, they gave warning (hence yappy little so-and-so's) and they acted as warmers/comforters in cold homes and when ladies were lonely.

Thus their chief skills are being very alert and noisily reactive to anything unusual, enjoying interaction with people, having a readiness to snap at small vermin, and - crucially - a huge empathy with humans.

If by designer breeds you mean crossbreds such as yorkipoo, jackapoo etc. these have no original task but will retain the characteristics of the parent breeds. Which characteristics depends on the genetic inheritance, which is 50% from each parent, but not the same 50% in each pup.

Off now to look up Pomeranians

[Nettle]

*PUTSONGLASSES*

Pomeranians were originally descended from Spitz breeds found in the Scandinavian countries and Eastern Europe. Spitz types are traditionally hunting dogs, used to find and track game and then hold it at bay/up trees and bark, sometimes for several hours, until the hunter arrives. Several varieties of Spitz type are used in this way nowadays.

Bred down into lapdog size, the Pom has been known since the C17 as a companion/lap dog.

So - they ARE from close to the Arctic, but descended from hunting dogs not sled dogs.

Source: Colonel David Hancock, one of our most reliable modern cynologists.

A quick trawl through t'Internet reveals claims that Poms were descended from sled dogs (before the Arctic wastes had been explored) and also that they were used to herd sheep.....many dog breeds are allegedly from sheep-herding stock, but actual dogs that herd flocks are only found in UK - other 'herds' are in fact flock GUARDS which gives them a totally different temperament and attitude to training - and some breeds allegedly from sheep-herding origins come from countries where sheep are not herded so we do have to be careful what we read.

I'll stick with Col. Hancock but I can see why the other ideas are tempting, and I'll keep an open mind if more evidence comes forth.

[minkee]

but actual dogs that herd flocks are only found in UK

That's a really interesting snippet of information! That, and the image of a team of poms pulling a sled of shopping home.

[nightsrainfall]

Nettle, how far back are you going before saying something is a part of the dog breed?

As for herding, there is cattle herding in the US and Australia (I dunno if there's cattle herding else where - I'd assume so) in the past were normally done by specific breeds, mainly the Heeler. I really like dog breeds and genetic/history information. I could geek out on it, but I'll refrain.

Actually, I've been looking for a breed-line origin or breed book that explains origins, histories, and traits (not just the normal breed things), but I can't find one. I doubt I will be to find one that's perfect, but even something showing the speculated connection of the Lagotto to the Poodle, history of the Caanan Dog, or the original use or reason for the Clumber Spaniel, and that for all other dog breeds (or most/majority) would be absolutely amazing!

I think researching breeds is interesting - there are many differences but also a lot of similarities. It doesn't help that each dog is its own though, so even though the dog is probably some way, doesn't mean it will remain true. Guessing dog breed and helping with bios and dog information (for the kennel signs) are a few of my favorite things to do for the shelter besides interacting with the dogs.

[Nettle]

Sorry NRF I should have explained better - the herding dogs originated in UK, and the herders now working as herders in other countries (I daren't say "the colonies" ) were originally bred from imported stock, because before the wicked white settlers came, bringing their flocks, herds and dogs, herding as we understand it was not done. All over Europe there are flock guarding dogs, then we look at other continents and where dogs are used, they are also guards not herders except where farmers herd in the British manner using breeds originally from UK stock. Even the "German Shepherd dog" is a guard not a herd.

My starting point is always the original use of the breed. These are the breed traits that come through when the chips are down for the dog. So whichever of the available options we believe created the Pom's ancestors, the Pom itself is a companion dog and so has companion dog traits.

Border collies can flyball, agility, search and rescue, find drugs/bombs, do very stylised Obedience competitions, show and many other things - but what every border collie does by instinct is herd.

[chay]

*PUTSONGLASSES*

Pomeranians were originally descended from Spitz breeds found in the Scandinavian countries and Eastern Europe. Spitz types are traditionally hunting dogs, used to find and track game and then hold it at bay/up trees and bark, sometimes for several hours, until the hunter arrives. Several varieties of Spitz type are used in this way nowadays.

Bred down into lapdog size, the Pom has been known since the C17 as a companion/lap dog.

So - they ARE from close to the Arctic, but descended from hunting dogs not sled dogs.

Source: Colonel David Hancock, one of our most reliable modern cynologists.

A quick trawl through t'Internet reveals claims that Poms were descended from sled dogs (before the Arctic wastes had been explored) and also that they were used to herd sheep.....many dog breeds are allegedly from sheep-herding stock, but actual dogs that herd flocks are only found in UK - other 'herds' are in fact flock GUARDS which gives them a totally different temperament and attitude to training - and some breeds allegedly from sheep-herding origins come from countries where sheep are not herded so we do have to be careful what we read.

I'll stick with Col. Hancock but I can see why the other ideas are tempting, and I'll keep an open mind if more evidence comes forth.

that is fantastic - thanks so much for the info, nettle! i LOVE it when you put on your glasses!! admittedly i was just going by what seemed to be the internet-consensus (always the first mistake!) with the sled dog theory, that's really interesting to know.

i'm certainly in no way beholden to the idea that i have a mini-sled-dog so i'm happy to err on the side of a more reliable source than wikipedia

[Nettle]

If you get the chance to read anything by Colonel Hancock, do - he's very thorough in his research.