New BAT theory

[runlikethewind]

Hi there

I've been recently reading a lot about this new technique and wondered what the trainers thought of it. I'm not au fait with it but it's basically about teaching the dog he has a choice to move away from things that worry him; the cue being.. you walk towards something which would worry the dog, he looks at you, you immediately turn around and walk the other way. I couldn't understand how the dog can learn to improve from this. This is where I am stuck with understanding it. Or would the theory be that the dog stops looking up when he is no longer afraid and able to walk closer towards the source of worry?

The founder of the techinque is doing a seminar in the UK soon.

[nightsrainfall]

I haven't heard of this at all - do you have any links or names to it I can look up. I googled BAT theory but got the wrong animal lol.

I'm trying to play in my head with the shelter dogs I've walked, but I don't think I quite understand the theory itself to even be able to compare it to anything yet.

[Nettle]

I don't know the theory (yet) but if a dog is concerned about something, it will only look at the handler IF there is history between them of the handler dealing with whatever concerns the dog. If the dog doesn't trust the handler to sort out whatever happens, which is the case in most owner/dog relationships, the dog won't waste time looking for help that it has never yet received - it'll do one of the four Fs (Fight, Flight, Freeze or Fiddle About).


The vast majority of reactivity issues we deal with here (and in the outside world) are caused by dogs not trusting their owners to keep them safe or listen to their fears.


I'd be very interested to know about BAT.

[runlikethewind]

Ok here are the details:

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/handouts/BAT-basics.pdf

and there are load of videos.

eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwf53xwyndw

The lady coming to the UK to teach it is Greisha Stewart

http://www.dogseminarsdirectory.com/sem ... 09_11.html

[runlikethewind]

The foundation of this is not the use of treat rewards, but environmental rewards ie do this and you can then do this. (premack) ie walk away
.. I think. I need to look into it more

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/class/bat-1-day.php

[runlikethewind]

Another video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rggoH2OCQY

[runlikethewind]

It can only really be done on lead and rather than the click/reward being to look at the scary thing, the click/reward is marked when the dog offers ALTERNATIVES TO WATCHING THE TRIGGER eg fiddles about, sniff ground, shakes or sits, or turns away it (it doesn't have to be look at the handler) and then you move off (as the reward, not a treat). The seminar is expensive but I'd love to attend. I don't understand where the behaviour modification is though.

It does really seem to fly in the face of traditional desensitisation where you click and treat for looking calmly at the stressor. Here the reward is moving away - ie what the dog wanted to do anyway, from its stressor, in return for doing something calm like fiddling about, sniffing, looking away from stressor. This makes me question - what is now best

BAT or traditional counter conditioning?

[Mattie]

Basically she is putting the dogs in a training situation were we do very similar out on walks, just look at the advise that we give here, all very similar but we don't have the dog in a training situation like she does. If you can put your dog in a training situation like that it may help the dog learn but the people we help, most can't go in this training situation like that.

I only saw one clip but it did show what we say to help people with their dogs, the dogs that we help don't have training situations, the owners have to work with what they have, roads and dog parks.

[runlikethewind]

Hi Mattie

Yes I understand she sets up scenarios - great in an ideal world. Some of her other videos have them doing work in the street I think under normal circumstances. The PDF download explains it well.

Rather than just staying far enough away from triggers and that's it, she introduces the concept that a click is achieved when the dog stops focusing on the source of worry and does a look away, fiddle around, sniff on floor and then the reward is walking away (no treat). It's an interesting way of doing things. I think the important point is the moment when the dog looks away from the trigger and does something else (ie the dog is offering a calmer action), that is the reward point.... whereas the conventional advice is either when the dog gets stressy, then move away or have the dog look at the stressor, when calm, click and treat.

In BAT, the reward is not a treat. It's moving away after he has done a good thing - and the good thing is NOT looking calmly at the stressor as you would expect. It's in fact looking away from it and doing something else.

[runlikethewind]

Also... it's not the same as WATCH ME.. because what she says is the dog is given a choice - to carry on looking at the stressor at a safe distance or carry out another action (ie sniffing, looking away etc) and then be rewarded for that by walking away. When you ask a dog to watch you, he has no choice.

When I first saw this, I thought it was all about teaching the dog to look at you to say - ok I'm not happy now, please take me away. BUT it is not that at all. Still a bit confused as to how to communicate it myself.

[Mattie]

With postive training methods you don't force a dog to do anything, you set them up to do what you want, in a way she seems to be doing the same thing, setting the dog up to do what she wants. She keeps the dog at a distance she knows she can cope with in a controlled place. For people like us who have to do this when out walking we can't do it that way but I do it very similar, I keep my dog at a distance they feel safe.

When a dog is sitting waiting for another dog to go past it can sometimes take some time, a long time to your dog, I can't go forward and may not have the room to go backwards so use "Watch me", to take the focus off the other dog onto me, in other words keeping my dog from deciding he is bored and getting into mischief.

As long a you have the facilities it does seem quite a good way but I wonder what happens when the do go out with their owner and not trainer.

[runlikethewind]

Yes I know - it certainly raises some interesting questions. My main observations are:

1. I think it relies on you seeing the stressor before the dog... which is not always possible although of course, we try
2. You have to stop walking to carry out the BAT so that dog then notices the stressor for himself
3. In stopping, I would think you are suggesting to the dog there is something to worry about....are you? are you not?
4. If the owner stops, the dog might naturally look up anyway - so you have to make sure the dog actually looks at the stressor, then offers the alternative action (be that look at you or anything else but not looking at the stressor)

All before you click and reward (by moving away)

I also cannot still see how the dog learns to improve or change the way he sees the world, by this method. Can anyone tell me please? And if I might be so bold.... ..I cannot either see how the dog learns to improve solely by the method of 'keeping the dog at the safe distance' routine. At some point, you have to move on to changing the way the dog feels about those things that stress him.

[Mattie]

I found with Gracie that standing in front of her so she could see the other dog, talking and asking her to do something like "Watch me", that Gracie learnt that at that distance Gracie was safe. Once she felt safe at that distance I moved closer to the other dog and gradually got closer and closer as Gracie learnt that she was safe and wasn't going to be attacked.

They do need to see the dog or they won't realise that dogs won't attack, you have to keep them at a distance they feel safe but as they feel safe at one distance, you are able to move forward a very short way and still the dog feels safe. If you take them too far forward they start to feel threatened again.

[Nettle]

I'm answering here rather than by PM (for those who contacted by PM) so more people can see and discuss what they think

Each fear situation has a different basis and is different with every dog. We deal with specifics on here: so often a poster comes aboard and says something like their dog was fine until....something happened eg it was jumped and bitten by another dog. Sometimes a dog is generally fearful, perhaps from undersocialiisation at the critical time, perhaps because of undiagnosed illness, or diagnosed illness undergoing treatment so that the dog feels vulnerable but is not in pain, maybe something that happened long before this person got this dog, oh so many more reasons. That dog, that owner, that lifestyle. We have to unpick all of it in order to find what will help that specific dog.

As a generalisation:

Everything a dog does is right as far as that dog is concerned.
People are usually rubbish at reading dog body language, so their dog will perceive an approaching dog as a threat while they think it wants to play.
People are usually rubbish at dealing with situations before they kick off, and tend to spectate until they are forced into action.
Then they tend to flap and scream and make things worse (more fearful) not better.
People tend to trivialise a dog's fear and think the dog can be trained or cajoled out of being scared, that the dog is playing around, attention-getting, being stupid .
People think dogs should love and play with everyone/thing in their lives, and always be happy and cute.

We make analogies with human fears so that the posters can get a feel for what is going on in the dog's mind eg putting someone who is terrified of wasps in a room full of wasps (flooding) is not going to make them happy and carefree with wasps.

First we identify the dog's fear triggers.
Then we acknowledge that the dog is being reasonable as far as it is concerned, no matter how unremarkable the fear trigger is to us.

Then we give the dog a safe place to be - with us.
To start with, we take the dog far enough from the feared things so that it feels safe (there is a wasp right over there. We will watch it but we are not afraid of it because it is far enough away. The message is that wasps will not get you because I will see to it). This is trust that is lacking in most human/dog relationships, so it has to be built.

We always say that this is not for ever, but that message seems to get lost quite often.

As the trust in the relationship grows, the stress hormones produced by the dog when it sees the stressor become less. Then is the time to reduce the distance, GRADUALLY and in small steps. This is where people tend to rush things. Up go those stress hormones. This is physical and emotional and can't be controlled by treats or rewards or making the dog sit or look at you. It/they can only be reduced by the dog finding the stressor less stressful, which it can only do in its own time.

Let's say again: dogs are not fearful for no reason or to annoy you or to get attention. They are fearful for good reason as far as they are concerned. They will not stop being fearful until they can trust the owner to control the feared object/environment, and any setback will lose all that trust (he was doing fine until we went to the dog park again and he got bitten again).

Some aspects of life deserve to continue inspiring fear eg approaching dogs with bad body language. (those are muggers and they WILL rob you).

Gradually GRADUALLY the dog will come to rely on you to handle any fear situation. You and the dog reduce the reaction distance until the dog comes to look at you for reassurance, for "Didja see that?" instead of "I'm outta here" or "Go Away RRRRR". Then you have dealt with the fear. But you must always respect fear and reactivity because they are hardwired into all of us and their purpose is to save us from threat or attack.

You cannot train away fear. You can only manage it. Think of the people you would like right with you if something scary happened - and the ones that you wouldn't. You have to be the first sort. There is no reward you can offer a fearful dog that rewards it, except by dealing with that which it fears.

[GundogGuy]

This is very interesting and I agree with mattie in that if you read some of the advice on here about reactive and fearful dogs then it is similar to this, only this is documented and perhaps more structured (because it's in seminar form)...

As for what learning/behaviour modification takes place... here's my tuppence worth...

I think what is being rewarded by this 'program' is the modification in the way the reactive dog sends it's messages or doesn't send it's messages for that matter. During the approach, the objective of stopping is a way of ensuring the dog doesn't go straight into a reactive frame of mind. I mean, if the handler sees the 'monster' as it was termed then the stop and wait for the dog to see it is just a way of keeping that safe distance with the minimum of reaction but allowing to dog to see the object it will react to...
So, if the handler can keep the dog outside of its escalation zone then the reward is given for anything other than escalating. The reward given is a 'life reward' (like allowing a Spaniel to hunt) which is of course, putting distance between the dog and the object it will be reactive towards.
The dog is rewarded for doing something outside of the zone which will normally be something that can only be accomplished if the dog is relaxed, i.e. look away, sniff the ground, a wee shake or whatever... So, if the dog is relaxed, its not tense, and if it's not tense, it's not being reactive and it's not giving off reactive signs (or early signs of reactiveness). So, as the dog gets rewarded for doing something relaxing, the distance can slowly be lessened so that the dog can get closer to the object without showing the signals that make it or the other dog reactive (because very often reactiveness is a two way street. This is why some dogs react to each other and some don't)...

I've heard of a gundog trainer using a similar 'tool' with a dog that went crazy every time it saw water. This dog loved to splash and swim so much it became quite unmanageable when it saw water. The trainer took in excess of 30 minutes to get this dog to the waters edge in calm frame of mind by continually approaching the water and as the dog started to escalate, turn around and reward the dog for being calm... Similar technique for a different stimulus...

Basically, (I think) the dog 'learns' that it's more rewarding to be relaxed around the stimulus than to be reactive, coupled with a heightened sense of trust in the handlers ability to cope... Not rushing in there and immediately asking the dog to comply to 'watch me' or even to expect the dog to progress with the clicker is basically getting the dog into a rewardable/trainable frame of mind and so setting the scene for success. Giving the dog the choice to make it's own mind up about what is rewarding only accelerates the learning. I use a similar 'here's your choices but only one gets rewarded' when training my dogs to stop-to-flush.