Puppies on Prozac???

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mapster
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Puppies on Prozac???

Post by mapster » Thu May 26, 2011 8:38 am

I have to admit, that the episode where the psychobabbling bs'er that convinced the owner to dope her dog with psychiatric drugs, completely turned me off. The vet/dog shrink lied when he said there would be no change in behavior-- these drugs have suicide and violence warnings all over them for people!!! Further, there is no conclusive proof, that brain chemicals uniformly lead to certain moods. There are people with low seratonin that are perfectly happy and people with "normal" levels that are clinically depressed. It's not an exact science by any means and also what happens when you have too much of these chemicals in the brain??? It's a slippery slope at best. Plus doping up a dog , or a human, with these mood altering drugs don't cure anything. They just maske the symptoms and create a litany of side effects. Those requiring the truth, only need to go to the PDR online and read the side effects of SSRI antidepressants for yourself. Then you'll know the truth!


Yours truly,

Turned off.

ladybug1802
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Re: Puppies on Prozac???

Post by ladybug1802 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:20 am

Mapster....I have just seen this post and had to reply as, although I can understand your views, you are looking at it in far to simplistic a way.

My dog Dylan was a rescue and I have had him since Nov 2009. He has fear issues with strangers....I have done a lot of work with him, got a lot of great advice on here and yes, have come a long way with him and he can at least be walked past people without lungeing most of the time now. BUT....his fears are still there. He wont let people touch him or stare at him - it totally freaks him out. He stresses out when people come to the house. Now I dont care about people touching him as once he gets to know them he is OK, but the point is HE finds it stressful and it raises his anxiety levels even futher. Plus I cannot take him to the vet...he wont let them anywhere near him. He has to be fulyl sedated to be examined and last time it took an hour before he was sedated and he flails arouynd, cries and his heart is going nine to the dozen. I have spent months and months taking him in there, sitting there, leaving, building it up and desensitizing, but we only have got so far.

My vet referred me to a very well known veterinary behaviourist at the Royal Veterinary college and, quite frankly, he was brilliant. Long story short he confirmed Dylan's issues are down to fear, and said they are more ingrained and 'phobic' so the normal way of counter conditioning a fearful dog wont work with phobic dogs...and yes, studies HAVE shown that fearful and impulsive dogs like mine DO produce less seratonin in the brain. So before we can start proper behavioural modification we need to lower his anxiety levels....there is no true measure that we can use to see if his fear/aggression is improvbing because he goes from frozen body language to lungeing - nothing inbetween.

So Dylan is on prozac now....and like you, initially I was not over the moon about it - I would never want to give my dog drugs, but I was open minded and if it helps him then its worth a shot. I trust this guy, he is on hand any time if I need to speak to him, and he said I should keep a close eye on Dylan tyhe first week and if after that he is more sleepy or less platyful than normal we need to change the drugs. I have spken to him a LOT in the last few weeks.


You are talking about the seratonin levels in humans.....these drugs have also been tested fairly extensively with dogs and there are definite rersults with fearfulness and impulsivity that whenb the seratonin levels increase, the anxiety levels decrease. Thats when we can start behaviour modification - at the moment we wont ever change the way he sees strangers.

And as for mood altering, and 'doping up' my dog....i can assure you he is still the same happy, playful, affectionate dog he always has been with people he trusts. He runs about like a mad thing on walks - same as normal. He plays with toys and I play with him - same as normal. The only small difference is he seems a little calmer and not so 'stressy' at times.

So with respect, i think unless you are in the position of having a dog who does have phobic and ingrained issues, and where you have tried all other routes, you cant really comment on whether you would or wouldnt. Sure - people with dogs with no issues can say they woukld never give their dog drugs like this....but answer me this....if your dog had a health problem, and there was only a couple of drugs that might help, would you decline giving them to your dog??

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eddy
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Re: Puppies on Prozac???

Post by eddy » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:11 am

mapster wrote:Plus doping up a dog , or a human, with these mood altering drugs don't cure anything. They just maske the symptoms and create a litany of side effects. Those requiring the truth, only need to go to the PDR online and read the side effects of SSRI antidepressants for yourself. Then you'll know the truth!
Hi Mapster, just to catch up on the points i quoted above (and maybe a few i didnt) just a bit of background on me, Bsc Human analytical Psychology and 4 years on hand experience in Neuroscience. What you have quoted is a little bit of a farse really, dogs dont get doped up on Prozac, nor do humans, weights, measures, doses and tablets are all VERY VERY carefully selected to each patient, the effect of SSRI's would NEVER have a dope effect anyway, in the respect of how they work. Remember SSRI's stop the untake of seratonin, not the release, it does not inhibit the production of, or transference of the chemical, it just makes the seratonin go for a lot longer without being withdrawn or transfered back into the receptor. So with that in mind, and the nature of seratonin how would it dope you up? If anything it would 'perk' you up a little more.

SSRI's MAOI's or any other form of drug never just mask the problems, they aid the problems hence the whole reason for medication in the 1st place. The brain is a very crititcally balanced machine, if 1 thing is a little out of place (ie. Lack of or too much seratonin) then problems arise, and the use of medication to restore or aid this balance is used.

If you'd like to get a more indepth description then id be pleased to give you more information :)

All the best
Eddy

ladybug1802
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Re: Puppies on Prozac???

Post by ladybug1802 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:11 am

Great explanation Eddy!!! :D

I think there is a general 'bad' view of drugs to be used to alter/improve mood or behaviour, and it is often a bit of a taboo subject. Before Dylan was put onto the drug, I was similar - I would never have wanted to have put a dog of mine on such drugs.....but a professional recommended it, and I have seen no negative effects to Dylan's behaviour whatsoever. He was a little subdued for the first few days, but now he is his normal self. He relaxes more at home, that ios maybe the only dfifference - which is surely good as it means he isnt running on nervous energy as much as he was previously. Obviously its early days as the drugs take 6-8 weeks to work I believe. I would very much like to change the negative views of drugs being used on dogs as being an 'easy fix' and 'doping the dog up' to avoid addressing the problem - whereas in fact it is the very opposite. Normal behaviour modification only works to a certain extent with dogs with ingrained/phobic fears and problems, such as Dylan, so why not give him the best possible chance.

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eddy
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Re: Puppies on Prozac???

Post by eddy » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:58 am

Very true Ladybug, think of it like a human, who wants to be anxious and panicy all day every day? If there is the option to have help with the use of medication. How many people do you see with depression (common/Clinical depression, not bi-polar) that are doped up off their meds, none thats for sure, because thats not how the drugs work. And yes, very true that it is a taboo area and people almost frown upon it saying things like 'its not natural' or 'the dog wont do anything and just plod around' their all misconfactions of what people view the drugs as, and i am CERTAIN that dogs who have these meds benefit no end due to the fact that like you said arent running on nervous energy.

Hopefully, people will eventually see the benefit (in cases where needed) of drugs. Im not saying go and drug up any dog lol thats not a good thing! But dogs who need that little bit of help deserve to be able to relax with help:)

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Mattie
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Re: Puppies on Prozac???

Post by Mattie » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:05 am

mapster wrote:I have to admit, that the episode where the psychobabbling bs'er that convinced the owner to dope her dog with psychiatric drugs, completely turned me off. The vet/dog shrink lied when he said there would be no change in behavior-- these drugs have suicide and violence warnings all over them for people!!!
Are you saying that you have only read the side effects of these drugs and not experienced them? Apart from dogs being different to people, what effect they have for one may not have for the other.

Being one of those people who do get suicidal and several other side effects from these drugs doesn't mean I wouldn't use them to help with someone else or one of my dogs, everyone is different, because they made me like this doesn't mean it will for others, in fact I know several people who these drugs were a lifesaver.
Further, there is no conclusive proof, that brain chemicals uniformly lead to certain moods. There are people with low seratonin that are perfectly happy and people with "normal" levels that are clinically depressed. It's not an exact science by any means and also what happens when you have too much of these chemicals in the brain??? It's a slippery slope at best.


So we are not to try them then but carry on trying to deal with the problems we have? The only way we can find out if they will help us or our dogs or not is to try them. If they don't work nothing has been lost if they do a lot is gained.
Plus doping up a dog , or a human, with these mood altering drugs don't cure anything. They just maske the symptoms and create a litany of side effects. Those requiring the truth, only need to go to the PDR online and read the side effects of SSRI antidepressants for yourself. Then you'll know the truth!


Yours truly,

Turned off.
No they don't mask the symptoms they help deal with what is wrong which helps recovery, it is not helping that prolongs what is wrong. Many people who go on these drugs are full-time carers, they are like this because they don't have the help they need caring for the other person, they spend a lot of time fighting to try and get the help they need but nobody listens. Many of these carers need these drugs to help the person they are caring for, this is the fault of our society not the drugs.

Sometimes there are other reasons for these drugs being needed, I was recommended them for Joe before I found out what was wrong with him, he wasn't high on drugs, in fact they didn't show much difference. He was on them for a month then taken off because I had found out what was wrong but they did give him a calmness that he didn't have without them.

Yes there are other things that may help, Reiki got me through caring for my late husband, TTouch can and does help nervous dogs, EFT is another that can help but these can only do so much, there are times when drugs are needed, thank goodness that we have them when they are.
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eddy
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Re: Puppies on Prozac???

Post by eddy » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:40 am

Further, there is no conclusive proof, that brain chemicals uniformly lead to certain moods. There are people with low seratonin that are perfectly happy and people with "normal" levels that are clinically depressed. It's not an exact science by any means and also what happens when you have too much of these chemicals in the brain??? It's a slippery slope at best.


This i find quite interesting, and a little bit of a white lie. You quote saying 'There are people with low seratonin' but that could mean low compared to joe bloggs next door, but a normal level for his brain. The problem here is we are tarnishing everyone to have 5µm/g per 5-HT2 receptor to be able to function right no more no less, thats wrong, not everyone requires the same amount, not everyones pineal gland, hypothalamus, amygdala, pons medulla, angullar gyrus are the same, no 1 is the same, so what may fit for 1 person does not another.

So after 100's of years of clinical testing, psychological analysis we still dont know that basic NTs (neurotransmitters) control human mood/emotion? lol thats far far FAR from the truth, what do we give depressants? Anti-depressents and they work, backed up by scientific tests and studies, so this has to show that not only dopamine (the D1 adenylyl cyclase receptor) responds very well to cyclic adenosine monophosphate but also controls Parkinsons disease? How do we know this? Proven backed up tests that can be repeated.

For years people with depression have been treated with Serotonin medication that propogate antagonists or inhibitors to the 5-HT (1 2 3) receptors, so in your statement that 'its not an exact science' is not only false, but rather silly. Also, conclusive proof there isnt that emotion/mood are controlled soley by NT's but external influences have a VERY big impact, but in the main part, it is controlled by chemicals and electro-chemical mechanisms within the brain, blood and body as a whole.

Thanks - Eddy

ladybug1802
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Re: Puppies on Prozac???

Post by ladybug1802 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:29 am

I would be interested in trying TT with Dylan actually Mattie - I dont know much about it but its something I would like to try....apart from the fact he wouldnt let a TT practicioner near him unless her had met her several times before.

I find it odd that the OP posted this on 26 May, yet hasnt come back and checked any further comments or commented themselves.

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Mattie
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Re: Puppies on Prozac???

Post by Mattie » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:56 am

This is your best bet for TTouch, http://www.tilleyfarm.co.uk/home.html there are a lot of practitioners now who run workshops all over the country, well worth going to one.
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Helen2009
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Re: Puppies on Prozac???

Post by Helen2009 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:12 pm

I am very lucky in that I only live 7 miles from Tilley Farm, so had a consultation with Tina who is the other Instructor in the UK. The dogs just totally relax with T Touch, its an amazing tool and its a great way to bond with your dog aswell. I always think of it as an 'unspoken language' between owner and dog, words aren't needed as the dog can just feel the help you are giving it with your touch. A lovely book to read is 'Unlock your dogs potential' by Sarah Fisher which explains everything perfectly. Its a good read, she actually gives a lovely case history of a Rottweiler who was so distressed he would not let anyone near him, but through the use of T Touch he turned into a wonderful dog who she grew very close to him until he went to his new adopted home.

Liz & Koa
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Re: Puppies on Prozac???

Post by Liz & Koa » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:11 am

Ladybug1802,

I totally agree with you. I never thought I would have to resort to medication just to keep my dog, but with Koa, I had no choice. He is reactive, fear aggressive, and I felt this was my only hope. I thought of having him pts, it was that bad. It's one thing to have to do that when a dog is sick and it is humane, but because of behavior, I couldn't wrap my head around it. There was no way I could, in good conscience , re-home this 1 year old GSD. He had been through enough. He was from a puppy mill, had no socialization and no human companionship. I was the happy owner of a 11 year old GSD who was great, but passed from bloat a month before, so I felt I could do the same for Koa. I trained, trained, saw behaviorists. He could not get over his fear. If he was fearfull and retreated, it would not be so bad, but he lunged and connected. After a ton of research, I asked my vet about medication and she agreed the Prozac is not to stop the behavior, but help him while training. It worked. Now Koa is four, he is on half of the max dose a day and it has made our life much better, not perfect, but better. We can walk outside without always reacting to trash or any other unknown on the street. Koa will never be the dog who lets people come to our house and visit, but we work around it. He goes to daycare, and loves it. If I am having a party, I board where they love him and say he is great there, so that leads me to believe it's also a territorial thing, me being the territory.

It is very stressfull being the owner of a dog like this, especially if you are a social, outgoing person. I have to watch him and all people around him at all times, because it can come out of nowhere. I find myself thinking, "Why can't I have a dog who loves all?" I know, self pitty, but it would be so nice. Then again, I really think that Koa would have not made it very far without us. We have no children, good jobs and the time it takes for him.

Don't get me wrong, I am a realist. I have said over and over, "Koa is getting all his money now in training, daycare and medication. I hope he stays healthy for a long time, but there is a part of me that thinks on the sad day that he leaves me, there will also be some relief for him and us. I know that sounds terrible, I love him and he is good with me, but it's not easy.

I think we do what we have to to give our dogs a good, happy life, and should be able to do that withouth judgement.

Liz & Koa

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Re: Puppies on Prozac???

Post by Liz & Koa » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:12 am

I don't think unless you have had to deal with a dog with the issues that these dogs have, anyone could understand. We as owners want to give our rescue dogs a far better and happier life than they have had. When you get a dog that is so reactive and unpredictable that you are considering puting him down, the use of medication is a good sollution. I love Koa and I want him to have a long happy life, but I am also a realist. If a dog is fear aggressive, afraid of every stanger he meets, how can he be happy. If I did not put him on the Prozac, I would have had to put him down. He had bitted my neighbor, so I could not in good concience rehome him.

Think what you will, but we do what we do because we want to be the best careing owners we can.

It's stressfull, expensive and time consuming.

Liz & Koa

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